UK ATM scam but account overseas

treebeard88

Hi all,


Any pointers on where to start with this as Google searches tend to return hits on the reverse situation.


I used a debit card issued by a bank in China in a UK ATM (this achieves international transfer and currency exchange in one step). All was fine, but then the UK bank ATM informed me that I had insufficient funds. I called the bank in China and discovered multiple withdrawals over a 3 day period of amounts equivalent to 100, 200, 300 and 500 pounds at the CNY-UKP exchange rate of the time.


This type of China bank card only works in ATMs of one UK high street bank, so that simplifies things a little. The pattern of withdrawals fits with that of an ATM thief compensating for a machine that has run out of twenties, for example.



The bank in China says I need to get a UK police report or a China police report depending on if the theft occurred at the UK ATM or in the bank in China. If it is a UK problem then the bank in China says it will do nothing. So my problem is to find out and prove where the money was taken. As I am in the UK now, I want to start by finding out if it happened at the UK ATM (or in the UK bank). I will then be fully equipped to deal with the China bank if it is not a UK problem.


The UK bank says I need to contact my bank (i.e. the bank in China) as I am not a customer of the UK bank. They say their ATM was being used by the China bank to serve me. So the UK bank can't deal with me directly. The China bank of course needs evidence from the UK bank before it will even think about investigating. I also tried reporting this to Action Fraud but they said it was not a crime they can report.


Any advice on how to best start tackling this problem would be most welcome. As would any advice on any rights I might have that could be used to extract some useful data at least.


China's daily limit is over 1300 UKP, so it seems targeting tourist areas could be good for the scammers, especially as this seems to be no one's responsibility (and the last ATM I used before the thefts began was in such an area).


Thank you!!

eskbanker

No idea what Chinese banking regulations and consumer rights entail, but if they're approximately equivalent to those in the UK (massive assumption!) then surely you just need to dispute the transactions with the China bank and declare that you didn't make them?

In the context of such unauthorised transactions, it should be up to them to prove that you did make the withdrawals rather than you having to prove you didn't, so they shouldn't expect you to play detective....

treebeard88

Thank you for your thoughts eskbanker,


Consumer rights in China seem to only apply to things that happen in China. The bank in China has already said that it is down to me to demonstrate that the money went astray in China, and if it appears that it was a UK problem then it is not their responsibility. I would need the UK bank's cooperation to find out if the theft occurred in the UK or not, and the UK bank is saying 'contact your card issuer'.


This is the circle in which I am trapped.

dj1471

Your bank will know where the transactions took place, your statement should give some clues too. Online banking?

Is the card a Visa, MasterCard or other global network? If so then the rules will be standard worldwide so it will be possible to advise somewhat on how the Chinese bank should handle the issue.

Terry_Towelling

treebeard88 wrote: »

Hi all,

Any pointers on where to start with this as Google searches tend to return hits on the reverse situation.

I used a debit card issued by a bank in China in a UK ATM (this achieves international transfer and currency exchange in one step). All was fine, but then the UK bank ATM informed me that I had insufficient funds. I called the bank in China and discovered multiple withdrawals over a 3 day period of amounts equivalent to 100, 200, 300 and 500 pounds at the CNY-UKP exchange rate of the time.

This type of China bank card only works in ATMs of one UK high street bank, so that simplifies things a little. The pattern of withdrawals fits with that of an ATM thief compensating for a machine that has run out of twenties, for example.

The bank in China says I need to get a UK police report or a China police report depending on if the theft occurred at the UK ATM or in the bank in China. If it is a UK problem then the bank in China says it will do nothing. So my problem is to find out and prove where the money was taken. As I am in the UK now, I want to start by finding out if it happened at the UK ATM (or in the UK bank). I will then be fully equipped to deal with the China bank if it is not a UK problem.

The UK bank says I need to contact my bank (i.e. the bank in China) as I am not a customer of the UK bank. They say their ATM was being used by the China bank to serve me. So the UK bank can't deal with me directly. The China bank of course needs evidence from the UK bank before it will even think about investigating. I also tried reporting this to Action Fraud but they said it was not a crime they can report.

Any advice on how to best start tackling this problem would be most welcome. As would any advice on any rights I might have that could be used to extract some useful data at least.

China's daily limit is over 1300 UKP, so it seems targeting tourist areas could be good for the scammers, especially as this seems to be no one's responsibility (and the last ATM I used before the thefts began was in such an area).

Thank you!!

This is such a poorly concocted story, I'm not even going to bother highlighting all the glaring inconsistencies, contradictions and nonsensical mathematics in it.

meer53

A simple check on your statement will show where the transactions took place.

treebeard88

Thank you, but sadly it will be a bank statement in mainland China and will only have the time, amount, and a code to indicate it was an international transaction. Also, the onus in China is for the victim to provide evidence of a crime, before anyone will investigate. Whatever the local branch staff in China knows and feels they should do, is all that counts in China because they are the gatekeepers.


To prove when and where the money was taken, printouts from the UK network would be useful because they will have more detail (e.g. the withdrawals might have occurred in different parts of the UK and within a short time). The Chinese bank will not request CCTV images etc from UK, but the UK bank could, but their position is to contact my card issuer.


Thank you also for believing my account. I don't usually post on forums (fora), it's just frustrating that both the UK and China are telling me to ask the other. Also, despite losing the money, this is not classed as a reportable crime.


From your responses, I sense that I have not missed any source of help on the UK side, and that there is not much that I can do, except to warn people with cards issued by small non-EU banks to check their balance every 24h if they use ATMs here. I will no longer be using cards issued by small non-EU banks!

jonnygee2

From your responses, I sense that I have not missed any source of help on the UK side

Correct, the ATM provider has no way to help you and will not respond to requests from you directly.

I will no longer be using cards issued by small non-EU banks!

Quite sensible, although I would point out that the Bank of China is anything but small!

Yorkshire_Pud

Bank account in China. OP is in UK. ATM fraud took place in UK.

Why? Could have been in any country with ATMs? Why in the UK where the OP just happens to be?

Fishy fishy;)

eskbanker

Yorkshire_Pud wrote: »

Bank account in China. OP is in UK. ATM fraud took place in UK.

Why? Could have been in any country with ATMs? Why in the UK where the OP just happens to be?

Doesn't seem like a particularly unreasonable assumption in the context of:

treebeard88 wrote: »

multiple withdrawals over a 3 day period of amounts equivalent to 100, 200, 300 and 500 pounds at the CNY-UKP exchange rate of the time

sal_III

I'm afraid this is a case of "Lost in translation". To sum it up:

- The China bank doesn't care, as in their jurisdiction the onus is on the customer to prove they didn't make the transaction.
- The UK bank can't (or at least is not equipped) to give you information, because you are not their customer - the China bank is. Their assumption/processes are based on their client - the foreign bank demanding evidence of the transaction, not individuals affected. And send you to your bank to trigger that investigation, which is n't happening because your Chinese bank doesn't care.

I'm afraid there isn't much you can do in this. You might try to ask the customer service of the UK bank to pass you on to their manager/supervisor, who might be more knowledgeable on how to handle such cases if they are the only UK bank that works with these specific Chinese cards there might be some specific knowledge/process to handle them that might not be imparted on all the customer service representatives. It's a long shot.

In the future, might I suggest to insulate yourself from similar issues by using Transferwise/Revolut type of "international" card or alternative available in China, where the onus will be on the card provider to prove the transaction was genuine, not the card holder.