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UKPC 'leaving site' PCN
DanOx
Posts: 4 Newbie
Hi,
Newbie question, but I have spent a good few hours reading the sticky threads and other sites on the same issue, so please bear with me!
I recently visited a large retail park, which always used to be free for up to 3 hours, with no condition 'not to leave' on foot. I have not used this car park in the last few years, so was unaware of any change in conditions.
A PCN was later attached to the windscreen for 'vehicle owner/ driver left site' demanding £100/ £60 if paid within 14 days. The 'issue time' and 'first seen' time on the notice were both the same, around 4 minutes after arrival. There was a link to the UKPC site with photos showing the PCN on the windscreen around a minute after the 'first seen' and 'issued' time, and a photo of the signage (illegible in the photo as out of focus) taken shortly thereafter. There is no evidence presented of anyone leaving the site
I have also read Beavis and Ibbotson. Given the timing of arrival/ first seen/ issue/ photos, it is clear that the warden has observed the vehicle arriving, and issued the PCN within a matter of minutes. Am I right that case law has now removed the obligation to mitigate losses (i.e. any onus on the warden to warn of an imminent breach of the conditions/ contract, rather than simply observing)? Is is also the case now that the £60 is not to cover a 'loss' that must be demonstrated (the car park was empty, and it was not possible to pay for parking, so what 'loss' was incurred by parking there?) There was no ANPR or CCTV visible on the site or barriers. The photos of the car were taken on body worn camera
The only defences I can see are the lack of proof supplied of anyone actually leaving the site, and that £100 is an unreasonable charge to be issued after 4 minutes of arrival/ parking, and that 'leaving site' is an unfair condition.
Is the best advice still to wait 26 days, then respond AS THE KEEPER via the UKPC appeals page, to avoid them applying to DVLA, thus negating keeper liability later? I have read the 'standard' appeal template on the newbie sticky thread. Much of it applies to PDT machines/ overstaying, and not to 'leaving site', Should I still use this template, as is?
I am happy to lodge appeals on her behalf etc, but my partner is the keeper and does not want to go to court. Her wrath will be great if it ends up costing more than the £60 demanded within 14 days. Should I contest this PCN, and on what specific grounds?
Again, apologies if I am covering old ground, but I have genuinely trawled the forum extensively for the answers, and I'd rather not encourage these parasites by paying them. Thanks!
Newbie question, but I have spent a good few hours reading the sticky threads and other sites on the same issue, so please bear with me!
I recently visited a large retail park, which always used to be free for up to 3 hours, with no condition 'not to leave' on foot. I have not used this car park in the last few years, so was unaware of any change in conditions.
A PCN was later attached to the windscreen for 'vehicle owner/ driver left site' demanding £100/ £60 if paid within 14 days. The 'issue time' and 'first seen' time on the notice were both the same, around 4 minutes after arrival. There was a link to the UKPC site with photos showing the PCN on the windscreen around a minute after the 'first seen' and 'issued' time, and a photo of the signage (illegible in the photo as out of focus) taken shortly thereafter. There is no evidence presented of anyone leaving the site
I have also read Beavis and Ibbotson. Given the timing of arrival/ first seen/ issue/ photos, it is clear that the warden has observed the vehicle arriving, and issued the PCN within a matter of minutes. Am I right that case law has now removed the obligation to mitigate losses (i.e. any onus on the warden to warn of an imminent breach of the conditions/ contract, rather than simply observing)? Is is also the case now that the £60 is not to cover a 'loss' that must be demonstrated (the car park was empty, and it was not possible to pay for parking, so what 'loss' was incurred by parking there?) There was no ANPR or CCTV visible on the site or barriers. The photos of the car were taken on body worn camera
The only defences I can see are the lack of proof supplied of anyone actually leaving the site, and that £100 is an unreasonable charge to be issued after 4 minutes of arrival/ parking, and that 'leaving site' is an unfair condition.
Is the best advice still to wait 26 days, then respond AS THE KEEPER via the UKPC appeals page, to avoid them applying to DVLA, thus negating keeper liability later? I have read the 'standard' appeal template on the newbie sticky thread. Much of it applies to PDT machines/ overstaying, and not to 'leaving site', Should I still use this template, as is?
I am happy to lodge appeals on her behalf etc, but my partner is the keeper and does not want to go to court. Her wrath will be great if it ends up costing more than the £60 demanded within 14 days. Should I contest this PCN, and on what specific grounds?
Again, apologies if I am covering old ground, but I have genuinely trawled the forum extensively for the answers, and I'd rather not encourage these parasites by paying them. Thanks!
0
Comments
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the advice in the NEWBIES thread is up to date , so yes the KEEPER appeals as KEEPER on day 26 with the blue text template , no blabbing about who was driving
the daily default tariff is probably £100 reduced to £60 for early payment and has been around for about a decade, so nothing new about it, despite you thinking its excessive, 3 courts and 11 judges say it isnt in the BARRY BEAVIS case
the NEWBIES thread tells you the "what happened" details are irrelevant for the initial appeal
if the KEEPER (nobody else) is contesting this appeal then the initial grounds are that blue text template
at POPLA the usual legal arguments will be put forward , same as the thousands of other threads on here, so yes its old ground , typically 6.5 years of old ground , since POFA 2012 came in , see post #3 of the NEWBIES thread0 -
You have given far too much information, making the scammers case for them.
Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper.
Delete the parts where you have admitted the "offence" of leaving site!
Just send the template exactly as it is from The Keeper around day 26.
Get pics of the site and signage asap.
If/when your initial appeal is rejected, construct a draft PoPLA appeal using all the relevant points from post 3 of the NEWBIES and post it here for checking before you submit it.
You will want proof that occupants left site, and that "the site" is clearly defined on the signage or a map.
Also check to see if the NTK is PoFA compliant.I married my cousin. I had to...I don't have a sister.
All my screwdrivers are cordless."You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks0 -
Do a forum search on keywords UKPC leaving site, read the many recent threads where advice on this has been given. Nothing has changed. UKPC have one major uphill struggle to pin this on you.
HOW TO USE THE FORUM SEARCH FUNCTION:
Hit your 'Back' button to get back to the forum thread list. On the bar just above the threads you'll see the 'Search' function. Click on the 'Advanced Search' button and on the following page place your keyword(s) in the 'Search By Keyword(s)' and make sure the 'Show Results As' button (at the foot of the window) is changed from 'Threads' to 'Posts'.Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.#Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
Thanks- I've now 'sanitised' the post, as per your advice.0
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