DVLA hounding for an incorrect fine

Divinelyinspired

Hello everyone,
Just over a year ago we sold my wifes car through Ebay motors. A gentleman drove up from the midlands, paid the money and drove away. He took with him the car, service history and the green slip from the V5 document. A happy man indeed. I posted the remainder of the V5 into a postbox the day after. I waited 2 weeks before cancelling the direct debit to allow the gentleman time to tax the car himself. Job done! NOT. A couple of weeks later we received a letter from DVLA saying the DD had been cancelled and either pay up or fill in a SORN. I called them immediately, a lifetime on hold almost, and explained that the car had just been sold. Then another letter, with a fine. And then an appeal. Rejected. And then another letter and phone call from me with them explaining that as we'd not received notification that DVLA had received the V5 then we're at fault. And therefore liable for the fine!. Then a couple of months later we are receiving letters from a debt collection company still mithering for 80 quid. I'm not being funny but we have four children, live on a very tight budget and only drive taxed and insured cars. I have furnished DVLA with the name of the purchaser, address where he lives and the date of sale. Today we've had a "Last chance" letter from the debt collectors. I am at a loss. The people involved are either thick or desperate for 80 quiid. The V5 was posted almost immediately after the sale, what else could we have done. I can't see anywhere saying we had to get proof of posting or proof of delivery. It went 1st class Royal Mail. If anything they OWE US the 2 weeks I allowed before cancelling the DD. Help!

DoaM

Divinelyinspired wrote: »

The V5 was posted almost immediately after the sale, what else could we have done.

A free certificate of posting from the PO would have removed this problem at the outset. Whilst there may be no direct guidance saying to do this, it is common knowledge and should be used for ALL important documents (if not using a signed-for service).

OR ... why didn't you just do it online?

Divinelyinspired

Thanks for that Doam. Common knowledge? To whom? We have never sold a car before. And didn't realise you could do it online. All after the fact. I don't see where liability for a fine should be dragging on. Like I mentioned, I furnished DVLA with the name, address and date of sale. What else could I have done? Apart from not having "common knowledge" and posting the form off almost immediately? Oh and by the way I have 4 children, one with a severe disability and learning difficulties, all at school and run my own business, so I'm pretty much busy 24/7/365 to know much else.But thank you for replying, appreciated

Joe_Horner

Their clai that "you're at fault because you didn't chase it up" is, legally, bull excrement of the highest order.

If you posted it by pre-paid post (certificate of posting / registered delivery etc is NOT required) then - legally - you've fulfilled your obligation and it was delivered unless they can prove otherwise which they can't. No, really, they can't - they haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of proving that.

If it comes to it, you can make a statutory declaration to the effect that you posted it and that is deemed proof unless they can prove you didn't. Again, they don't have a hope of doing that.

Chasing up a not-legally-required courtesy letter from them confirming it is absolutely NOT your job so the fact you didn't makes no difference at all to the above.

That said, they'll hound you and hound you - possibly up to issuing a summons - until either you cave or they do.

Divinelyinspired

Thanks Joe. That is exactly how I feel.I have had several verbal conversations now with both Swansea and the debt collectors. It really is a brick wall. I have written in to them both, on more than one occasion but to no avail. They seem hell bent on pressing for the dough, but they can do one. More than prepared to go to court and will then put a counterclaim in for harassment!!

EssexExile

Joe_Horner wrote: »

Their clai that "you're at fault because you didn't chase it up" is, legally, bull excrement of the highest order.

I hate to be a party pooper but on the V5 it tells you that you will get acknowledgement of the change of ownership within 4-6 weeks. "If you do not get an acknowledgement letter or refund [of the tax] within the above timescale you should contact us at https://www..... as you could be liable for the vehicle and may get a penalty and/or be prosecuted".

z1a

"Busy 24/7/365" how does that work?

Surely it's 24/7 or 24/365.

Scrapit

Divinelyinspired wrote: »

Oh and by the way I have 4 children, one with a severe disability and learning difficulties, all at school and run my own business, so I'm pretty much busy 24/7/365 to know much else.But thank you for replying, appreciated

If you could explain the relevance of any of that ^up there that would be great.

Joe_Horner

EssexExile wrote: »

I hate to be a party pooper but on the V5 it tells you that you will get acknowledgement of the change of ownership within 4-6 weeks. "If you do not get an acknowledgement letter or refund [of the tax] within the above timescale you should contact us at https://www..... as you could be liable for the vehicle and may get a penalty and/or be prosecuted".

It doesn't matter. That's like one of those completely unenforceable disclaimers that "the management accept no responsibility for..." followed by something that they can't avoid responsibility for.

DVLA are bound by the law as made by Parliament, they have no power to make law themselves, and the law on this is quite clear:

(1) The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002, S.22(2) imposes an obligation on the Registered keeper to "deliver to the Secretary of State" the name and address of the new keeper and the date of sale, together with a signed declaration by the new keeper that the details are correct.

That's essentially the bits that get filled out on the V5, which you then "deliver" to the Secretary of State by sending to DVLA.

Once that has been done, the old keeper has discharged his one and only obligation according to the law. the DVLA do not have powers to impose any obligations beyond that, much as they might like to.

They can make internal procedures for admin purposes, such as sending acknowledgement letters, but those have no legal force whatsoever.

(2) S.7 of The Interpretation Act 1978. which is (funnily enough) an Act defining how other Acts should be interpreted, has this to say about "service by post":

"References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post."


Given that the Registration regulations clearly don't mean for every keeper to personally turn up and hand deliver details to the Secretary of State (could be interesting if they did!), the requirement to "deliver" is obviously an "other expression authorising a document to be served by post".

So, once you post it - with the correct address and appropriate stamp - it is legally deemed to have been received in the course of normal post. Again, DVLA are powerless to over-rule that because they don't make laws.

Joe_Horner

z1a wrote: »

"Busy 24/7/365" how does that work?

Surely it's 24/7 or 24/365.

Or 24/7/52 would work.

oscarward

It’s the same legislation which allows a NIP for speeding offences to be sent without proof of delivery.

The declaration of posting is sufficient legally so you can’t bin a NIP and say not received and avoid identifying the driver to claim time out thus wriggling out of it.