Rights re refunding online auto renewal

Jonty1022

I've just had an argument with Adobe about refunding my auto renewal.

The 12 month contract (for Export PDF) renewed 2 days ago. I asked to cancel the contract and for a full refund as I am within 14 days of my payment and I have not used the service.

They told me that the full refund within the 14 days is only applicable to the 'initial order' (as per their legal Ts&Cs), and they consider the initial order to be when I first took out the subscription 3 years ago. My argument was that as the contract only lasts 12 months, each new 12 month contract applies as its own 'initial order', and as such I should have the right to cancel within 14 days of any renewal.

Can someone please tell me whether I am wrong, and if not point me in the direction of some legislation / regulation that I can point them to?

Thanks

Fosterdog

You are wrong, the 14 days to cancel is to give you time to try out the service/product to see if it is suitable for your needs, as you have had access to the product for a full 12 months you have already had more than enough time to know whether or not the product was right for you and you do not get the same cooling off period with renewals. It will most certainly have been included in the T&Cs you originally agreed to, plus adobe as standard do send out reminder emails roughly a month before renewal is due. On top of that the information is available for you to check at any time in your account.

Paul_DNAP

Yes, agree with above, your "14 days cooling off" only applies to the starting of the contract, and you've agreed to an auto-renew basis and so each new payment is not an "initial order" in any way at all, it is a rolling subscription with yearly payment, and the terms of cancelling that will be outlined clearly, but it's likely to require notification a certain time ahead of the next payment due date.

unholyangel

What terms and conditions were you given when entering the contract? Did they send you a renewal notice?

I've tried looking on their site but the only terms they say is applicable to export is their general terms and that doesn't seem to mention you're signing up to a contract of indeterminate length. The only thing I can see so far that remotely touches on the subject is:

7.2 Credit Card Information. If you do not notify us of updates to your payment method, to avoid interruption of your service, we may participate in programs supported by your card provider to try to update your payment information. You authorize us to continue billing your account with the updated information that we obtain.

Notwithstanding that information on a website isn't durable (and so doesn't meet the requirements of the CCRs), that term doesn't come anywhere close to being enough.

Nor do they mention a 14 day right to cancel but they do state those outside of north america will contract with adobe ireland and governed by irish law (which means the CCRs will apply - or at least the irish equivalent of them).

Fosterdog

Here's the actual subscription terms page
https://www.adobe.com/uk/legal/subscription-terms.html

unholyangel

Fosterdog wrote: »

Here's the actual subscription terms page
https://www.adobe.com/uk/legal/subscription-terms.html

unholyangel wrote: »

I've tried looking on their site but the only terms they say is applicable to export is their general terms

Not only do they only state the general terms of use apply on their legal page, they also only ask you to agree to those general terms of use when purchasing export (I checked before posting).

ETA: And if you check the subscription page, you'll see plenty of other products listed with payment conditions, but export isn't mentioned at all.

Jonty1022

So Export must fall under the "Acrobat Products and Document Cloud" section in their Adobe Subscription and Cancellation Terms page as linked above, given it is not specifically mentioned elsewhere.

They themselves call it an "annual contract", which surely must mean it lasts for 12 months. They state: "Your contract will renew automatically, on your annual renewal date, until you cancel". It may be a rolling subscription, but I don't see how it becomes a rolling contract. Surely each new 12 month cycle counts as new "annual contract".

They go on to say: "If you cancel within 14 days of your initial order, you’ll be fully refunded. Should you cancel after 14 days, your payment is non-refundable and your service will continue until the end of your contracted term". Shouldn't each new "annual contract" be subject to the CCR provision of the 14 day right to cancel?

I really appreciate everyone's replies. However I think the consensus seems to be that I'm wrong, although I'm not sure what unholyangel's position is on it? I'm afraid I couldn't work out if in your second post you changed your mind about whether or not the CCR requirements are met?

JJ_Egan

Adobe are you buying from a UK website or USA ?

Jonty1022

I'm in the UK, so guessing my region would be set as UK. I can't remember though what it was specifically when I made the initial purchase. Any way to find out?

unholyangel

Jonty1022 wrote: »

I really appreciate everyone's replies. However I think the consensus seems to be that I'm wrong, although I'm not sure what unholyangel's position is on it? I'm afraid I couldn't work out if in your second post you changed your mind about whether or not the CCR requirements are met?

My position is that the subscription terms don't apply to export purchases because:
1) Their legal page only state the general terms of use apply and
2) When pretending to purchase export, the only terms they ask you to agree to are the general terms of use.
3) You can't be bound by terms that weren't provided to you before you agreed to the contract.

Further to that, I made a point that (in order to comply with CCRs) they need to provide certain information in a durable medium - and websites are not durable. Nor do they provide all of the information required (and they do need to provide it, its not up to you to wade through pages of terms to try and figure out which ones apply).

So I would be raising a chargeback or section 75 claim (former for debit and latter for credit cards) with my bank and if they reject the claim, then refer it to the ombudsman.

Jonty1022

OK. Thank you very much for the advice, and to everyone for the constructive comments. Much appreciated.