Fistral Beach - Initial Parking

Zzzubbb

Hello all,

[NB: Links - Please select, right click and select 'go to' or add https:// to the front of the address.]

Firstly let me commend you all on the vast wealth of information available on this comprehensive and knowledgeable forum, (and secondly apologies for any silly questions)..

Having searched and researched many of the previous treads on the board, particularly in relation to initial parking and Fistral beach. It is apparent that this is a common issue with these unregulated cowboy parking companies. How the land owners and retail outlets consider this to be acceptable and promoting tourism is unknown to me..

As keeper of the vehicle a Parking Charge Notice from initial Parking has been received.

Please see link below to notice received:

i.imgur.com/CUA3TnW.jpg
i.imgur.com/UaiBDM7.jpg

- The contravention is alleged to have taken place 08/07/2019.
- The PCN was issued on 18/07/19
- PCN received 20/07/19. (Day 12)
From what i understand this does not qualify for golden ticket status nor negate transfer of fine from Driver to Keeper.

The PCN states that the vehicle entered the car park on at 12:46:20 and left at 16:06:05.

3 hours parking was paid for - from the time a space was obtained, vehicle parked and parking paid.
However this does not account for the time between entering the car park and finding a space which i understand is considered to be a minimum of 10 minutes grace nor the time taken to leave which again i understand is considered to be a minimum of 10 minutes grace. In addition on this occasion we were prevented from leaving due to being stuck behind a large delivery vehicle for at least 10 minutes on the narrow single lane entrance to the Fistral beach car park.

An appeal was submitted 21/07/19 as per template appeal letter :

Although not the driver of the car I felt the most appropriate heading for the appeal was 'I did not park for the stated time' as the payment for the parking was made by myself on behalf of the driver...
imgur.com/9tnGMcQ

A response was received today from Initial parking that the appeal has been rejected although the reasoning and exact timings remain vague:

i.imgur.com/fxGpRvs.jpg
i.imgur.com/9LBaymE.jpg

We have carefully reviewed the case and considered the points that you raised in conjunction with the facts and evidence available to me. On this occasion, your appeal has been rejected and we are satisfied that this Parking Charge Notice was issued correctly. Fistral Beach, Newquay is private land and is subject to a parking management scheme put in place by the operator at the landowner’s request. There are specific terms and conditions in place as part of this scheme. These terms and conditions are stated on the signs installed at the site, which are displayed in clear and prominent positions. The terms and conditions of the scheme at this location state that a valid payment must be made for the length of time the vehicle is parked on site. On 08/07/2019, the vehicle was parked without full payment made. This was a breach of these terms and conditions.

and that i have 3 options.
- Pay
- POPLA appeal
- Non-payment or appeal = Debt collection

Can someone please advise on what grounds am i best placed to pursue this ?

Many thanks in advance,

Z

The_Deep

They keep trying it on, this is the third PPC to infest this site in a short time, read this

https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html

Complain to Trading Standards, the landowner , the tourist office, local media, The Chamber of Commerce, and your MP.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Fruitcake

Zzzubbb wrote: »

Hello all,

[NB: Links - Please select, right click and select 'go to' or add https:// to the front of the address.]

Firstly let me commend you all on the vast wealth of information available on this comprehensive and knowledgeable forum, (and secondly apologies for any silly questions)..

Having searched and researched many of the previous treads on the board, particularly in relation to initial parking and Fistral beach. It is apparent that this is a common issue with these unregulated cowboy parking companies. How the land owners and retail outlets consider this to be acceptable and promoting tourism is unknown to me..

As keeper of the vehicle a Parking Charge Notice from initial Parking has been received.

Please see link below to notice received:

i.imgur.com/CUA3TnW.jpg
i.imgur.com/UaiBDM7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/CUA3TnW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UaiBDM7.jpg

Zzzubbb wrote: »

- The contravention is alleged to have taken place 08/07/2019.
- The PCN was issued on 18/07/19
- PCN received 20/07/19. (Day 12)
From what i understand this does not qualify for golden ticket status nor negate transfer of fine from Driver to Keeper.

The PCN states that the vehicle entered the car park on at 12:46:20 and left at 16:06:05.

3 hours parking was paid for - from the time a space was obtained, vehicle parked and parking paid.
However this does not account for the time between entering the car park and finding a space which i understand is considered to be a minimum of 10 minutes grace nor the time taken to leave which again i understand is considered to be a minimum of 10 minutes grace. In addition on this occasion we were prevented from leaving due to being stuck behind a large delivery vehicle for at least 10 minutes on the narrow single lane entrance to the Fistral beach car park.

An appeal was submitted 21/07/19 as per template appeal letter :

Although not the driver of the car I felt the most appropriate heading for the appeal was 'I did not park for the stated time' as the payment for the parking was made by myself on behalf of the driver...

imgur.com/9tnGMcQ

https://imgur.com/9tnGMcQ

Zzzubbb wrote: »

A response was received today from Initial parking that the appeal has been rejected although the reasoning and exact timings remain vague:

i.imgur.com/fxGpRvs.jpg
i.imgur.com/9LBaymE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fxGpRvs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9LBaymE.jpg

Zzzubbb wrote: »

We have carefully reviewed the case and considered the points that you raised in conjunction with the facts and evidence available to me. On this occasion, your appeal has been rejected and we are satisfied that this Parking Charge Notice was issued correctly. Fistral Beach, Newquay is private land and is subject to a parking management scheme put in place by the operator at the landowner’s request. There are specific terms and conditions in place as part of this scheme. These terms and conditions are stated on the signs installed at the site, which are displayed in clear and prominent positions. The terms and conditions of the scheme at this location state that a valid payment must be made for the length of time the vehicle is parked on site. On 08/07/2019, the vehicle was parked without full payment made. This was a breach of these terms and conditions.

and that i have 3 options.
- Pay
- POPLA appeal
- Non-payment or appeal = Debt collection

Can someone please advise on what grounds am i best placed to pursue this ?

Many thanks in advance,

Z

Having put this in your appeal, the scammers will use this as an admission that you were the driver.

'I did not park for the stated time'

Get pics of the site and signage asap. I believe there is a fakebook group for this location that may be able to help.

As for PoPLA, construct an appeal using all the points available from post 3 of the NEWBIES and post your draft here for checking before you submit it.

The_Deep

the scammers will use this as an admission that you were the driver.

IMO that is of no consequence. If the law says that they cannot charge for time spent looking for a space, they are Friar Tucked.

Zzzubbb

Many thanks for sorting the links Fruitcake I had a feeling that would be one of the first points that would be raised that's why i wanted to highlight my error..
Do i have any other grounds for appeal i.e. the grace period, obstructed exit etc or does that blow it out of the water and the charge should be paid while at £60. ?

The_Slithy_Tove

Thank you for doing your homework first, before posting.

Zzzubbb wrote: »

From what i understand this does not qualify for golden ticket status nor negate transfer of fine from Driver to Keeper.

The PCN states that the vehicle entered the car park on at 12:46:20 and left at 16:06:05.

Yes, the NtK was delivered on time, but that does not make it POFA compliant.
As you clearly assert, they have NOT specified the period of parking, only the period between you passing a certain point on the way in and out of the car park. That is not parking. Fail #1.
They also don't clearly indicate who the creditor is. Fail #2.

So, you appeal to POPLA, claiming no POFA compliance, but also that you paid for the period the car was parked. Cite the case already quoted about waiting to get in/out is not parking.

You may well lose, but DO NOT PAY. If they were to take it to court, there is plenty of precedent when it comes to that car park.

Zzzubbb

The_Deep wrote: »

the scammers will use this as an admission that you were the driver.

IMO that is of no consequence. If the law says that they cannot charge for time spent looking for a space, they are Friar Tucked.

Thanks The Deep :Does the law clearly state this and if so where can i find this for reference.?

Fruitcake

Zzzubbb wrote: »

Many thanks for sorting the links Fruitcake I had a feeling that would be one of the first points that would be raised that's why i wanted to highlight my error..
Do i have any other grounds for appeal i.e. the grace period, obstructed exit etc or does that blow it out of the water and the charge should be paid while at £60. ?

Being unable to leave the car park would constitute frustration of contract, and should be one of your appeal points. I don't suppose the vehicle has a dash cam, or an occupant took pics of the blockage did they?

Zzzubbb

Fruitcake, if only we had predicted this, pictures and dashcams would have been used, however nothing available.

Redx

Grace periods are the best point here, frustration of contract due to being prevented from leaving by the delivery truck blockage

If they have adhered to pofa, then concentrate on a driver appeal based on frustration of contract, extended grace period due to that blockage, busy due to the time of year etc, lay it on thick

The_Slithy_Tove

Redx wrote: »

If they have adhered to pofa

Even if it appears they have, it's always worth challenging them on that - see my points above. They can always say "no", whereupon you then proceed to the next challenge. You only need to succeed on ONE point.

And don't forget, if challenging POFA, to reinforce the fact that you were not driving, even if you happened to be in the car as a passenger and paid for the parking.