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Advice needed on Defence already submitted- going forward to contest VCS
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gumgirl
Posts: 57 Forumite
Hi There
Can anyone help me in my case please? I would very much appreciate it.
I had a parking ticket issued by VCS in January 2015 for overstaying in Berkeley Precinct Sheffield- 2 hours free parking and I overstayed about 40 minutes not realising it was only 2 hours- I believe from reading posts that his is a well known place for parking tickets being issued and challenged. It was in the evening and the car park was not full. I contested the ticket due mainly to poor signage- and after many letters, including threats of debt collectors from them they stopped, until a Letter Before Claim, dated 16/04/19 was sent, which I (stupidly I think) did not reply to. Then a Claim Form (County Court Business Centre) was sent with Issue date 28 May 2019.
They intend to claim £160 for the principal debt, £52.81 Est interest, Est Court fees £25.00- Total £237.81
After reading helpful newbie threads on here, etc, I submitted my defense (a family emergency meant I was not able toto ask here for advice before I submitted it unfortunately) and
have the notice on proposed allocation to the smalls claim track. I will fill this in using advice from posters here and say no to mediation.
But I have some questions going forward. One is I did not claim costs when I put in the defense and I would like advice on whether I can do that at a later stage when I submit the witness statement etc, for eg.
Another is that in the defense I said I no longer had photos of the original signage but since have found them, so can I submit these to the court at a later date?
I have pasted my already submitted defense below and need advice on if I have shot myself in the foot in any way and if so, whether I can rectify this in the witness statement, or if there is anything else I should bring the court's attention to.
Lastly any tips for the future witness statement would be appreciated, I will of course read all the newbie threads on this.
If it were not for the help on the forums I would not even have got this far. I am a bit nervous about going to court myself, but see from posts it is not too daunting (!) but feel we have to stand up to these cowboys. Even if I lose I will be glad I did it.
Thank you. Gina (not my real name.)
Defense already submitted:
1. I, xxxxx am the defendant in this case. The
facts in this defence come from my personal knowledge. Where they
are not within my own knowledge there are true to the best of my
information and belief. I am not liable to the Claimant for the
sum claimed, or any amount at all. I assert that I am the
registered keeper of the vehicle in question in this case.
2. The claimant states that the defendant’s vehicle was captured
by the claimant’s ANPR system having parked in the car park for
longer than the maximum stay period permitted on 31.1. 2015.
However, the ANPR system does not take into account any waiting
times within the car park when the car is not parked.
3. UNCLEAR, INADEQUATE AND NON-COMPLIANT SIGNAGE
It was impossible to read the terms and conditions at the site
when stood directly under the sign as the font was too small. I
included pictures of the inadequate signing when I initially
appealed against the fine with the Independent Appeals Service
(IAS). This is a matter of record. Neither, in 2015, at the time
of the alleged offence, were there adequate numbers of signs in
each parking bay. I no longer have these photographs given the
time period that has elapsed before the claimant brought this
case against me to court. However, on June 29th, 2019, I visited
the same car park at Berkeley Precinct, Sheffield, and noted that
many of the parking bays now have individual signings, the other
larger signs displayed were now in bigger font, and, unlike at
the time of the alleged offence, the sign on entry to the carpark
was no longer obscured by a tree. Therefore, my belief is that
these changes by the claimant to make signage clearer are
evidence that the previous signage available at the time of my
alleged offence, has subsequently been deemed to be
inadequate/not fit for purpose.
4. In addition, the case Parking Eye vs Beavis [2015] addresses
the need for the signs to be clear of which VCS at the time of
the alleged offence, did not show the charges incurred for breach
in a sufficiently large font nor had they set out the terms and
conditions in a readable format without a step ladder and
magnifying glass, or at the very least, very strong reading
glasses which I did not possess. The font sizes on the VCS signs
were far too small packed with confusing patterns and symbols
around them. The sign was a mass of confusing and contradictory
words. The icon showing the PCN charges were hidden in the small
print. It was not prominent or obvious to see by a motorist
driving, even very slowly, past the sign. I submit that no
reasonable person would agree that their terms were brief, clear
and prominently proclaimed. Case law from Beavis would therefore
lead to the conclusion that a vital ingredient is that the
signage be ample, the charge clear. I am unable to have an
opinion on whether the CURRENT signage meet the requirements set
by the IPC, and are therefore deemed reasonable. But in 2015, I
submit that VCS’s did not comply.
5. A reasonable interpretation of Lord Denning’s 'red hand rule'
and the BPA and IPC Code of Practice, taking all information into
account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be
displayed far more transparently and in larger lettering, with
fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast suited
to an outdoor sign than was the case at the time of the alleged
offence in 2015.
6. UNFAIR TERMS
The charge that was levied is an unfair term (and therefore not
binding) pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts
Regulations 1999.
7. UNREASONABLE CHARGES
The charge that was levied is an unreasonable indemnity clause
F0QZ7J30
pursuant to section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.
8. NO BREACH OF CONTRACT AND NO GENUINE PRE-ESTIMATE OF LOSS
There was no parking charge levied, the car park at the time of
the alleged offence was ‘free’. On the date of the claimed loss
it was only at approximately 10% capacity, as it was in the
evening, and there was no physical damage caused. There can have
been no loss arising from this incident. Neither can VCS lawfully
include their operational day-to-day running costs in any 'loss'
claimed. I contend there can be no loss shown whatsoever; no
pre-estimate (prior to starting to 'charge for breaches' at this
site) has been prepared or considered in advance. The charge that
was levied is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable)
against me. The initial charge is arbitrary and in no way
proportionate to any alleged breach of contract. Nor does it even
equate to local council charges for all day parking. This is all
the more so for the additional charges which the operator states
accrues after a time of non-payment. This would also apply to any
mentioned costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed
a court order. I would question that if a charge can be
discounted by 40% by early payment that it is unreasonable to
begin with.
9. UNLAWFUL PENALTY CHARGE
Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of
contract has been alleged for what was a free car park, it can
only remain a fact that this 'charge' is an attempt at extorting
an unlawful charge to impersonate a parking ticket. This is
similar to the decisions in several County Court cases such as
Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman (2008), also
OBServices v Thurlow (review, February 2011), Parking Eye v Smith
(Manchester County Court December 2011) and UKCPS v Murphy (April
2012). The operator could state the letter as an invoice or
request for monies, but chooses to use the wording ‘PARKING
CHARGE NOTICE’ in an attempt to be deemed an official parking
fine similar to what the Police and Council Wardens issue.
10. I believe the facts stated in this Defence Statement are
true.
Can anyone help me in my case please? I would very much appreciate it.
I had a parking ticket issued by VCS in January 2015 for overstaying in Berkeley Precinct Sheffield- 2 hours free parking and I overstayed about 40 minutes not realising it was only 2 hours- I believe from reading posts that his is a well known place for parking tickets being issued and challenged. It was in the evening and the car park was not full. I contested the ticket due mainly to poor signage- and after many letters, including threats of debt collectors from them they stopped, until a Letter Before Claim, dated 16/04/19 was sent, which I (stupidly I think) did not reply to. Then a Claim Form (County Court Business Centre) was sent with Issue date 28 May 2019.
They intend to claim £160 for the principal debt, £52.81 Est interest, Est Court fees £25.00- Total £237.81
After reading helpful newbie threads on here, etc, I submitted my defense (a family emergency meant I was not able toto ask here for advice before I submitted it unfortunately) and
have the notice on proposed allocation to the smalls claim track. I will fill this in using advice from posters here and say no to mediation.
But I have some questions going forward. One is I did not claim costs when I put in the defense and I would like advice on whether I can do that at a later stage when I submit the witness statement etc, for eg.
Another is that in the defense I said I no longer had photos of the original signage but since have found them, so can I submit these to the court at a later date?
I have pasted my already submitted defense below and need advice on if I have shot myself in the foot in any way and if so, whether I can rectify this in the witness statement, or if there is anything else I should bring the court's attention to.
Lastly any tips for the future witness statement would be appreciated, I will of course read all the newbie threads on this.
If it were not for the help on the forums I would not even have got this far. I am a bit nervous about going to court myself, but see from posts it is not too daunting (!) but feel we have to stand up to these cowboys. Even if I lose I will be glad I did it.
Thank you. Gina (not my real name.)
Defense already submitted:
1. I, xxxxx am the defendant in this case. The
facts in this defence come from my personal knowledge. Where they
are not within my own knowledge there are true to the best of my
information and belief. I am not liable to the Claimant for the
sum claimed, or any amount at all. I assert that I am the
registered keeper of the vehicle in question in this case.
2. The claimant states that the defendant’s vehicle was captured
by the claimant’s ANPR system having parked in the car park for
longer than the maximum stay period permitted on 31.1. 2015.
However, the ANPR system does not take into account any waiting
times within the car park when the car is not parked.
3. UNCLEAR, INADEQUATE AND NON-COMPLIANT SIGNAGE
It was impossible to read the terms and conditions at the site
when stood directly under the sign as the font was too small. I
included pictures of the inadequate signing when I initially
appealed against the fine with the Independent Appeals Service
(IAS). This is a matter of record. Neither, in 2015, at the time
of the alleged offence, were there adequate numbers of signs in
each parking bay. I no longer have these photographs given the
time period that has elapsed before the claimant brought this
case against me to court. However, on June 29th, 2019, I visited
the same car park at Berkeley Precinct, Sheffield, and noted that
many of the parking bays now have individual signings, the other
larger signs displayed were now in bigger font, and, unlike at
the time of the alleged offence, the sign on entry to the carpark
was no longer obscured by a tree. Therefore, my belief is that
these changes by the claimant to make signage clearer are
evidence that the previous signage available at the time of my
alleged offence, has subsequently been deemed to be
inadequate/not fit for purpose.
4. In addition, the case Parking Eye vs Beavis [2015] addresses
the need for the signs to be clear of which VCS at the time of
the alleged offence, did not show the charges incurred for breach
in a sufficiently large font nor had they set out the terms and
conditions in a readable format without a step ladder and
magnifying glass, or at the very least, very strong reading
glasses which I did not possess. The font sizes on the VCS signs
were far too small packed with confusing patterns and symbols
around them. The sign was a mass of confusing and contradictory
words. The icon showing the PCN charges were hidden in the small
print. It was not prominent or obvious to see by a motorist
driving, even very slowly, past the sign. I submit that no
reasonable person would agree that their terms were brief, clear
and prominently proclaimed. Case law from Beavis would therefore
lead to the conclusion that a vital ingredient is that the
signage be ample, the charge clear. I am unable to have an
opinion on whether the CURRENT signage meet the requirements set
by the IPC, and are therefore deemed reasonable. But in 2015, I
submit that VCS’s did not comply.
5. A reasonable interpretation of Lord Denning’s 'red hand rule'
and the BPA and IPC Code of Practice, taking all information into
account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be
displayed far more transparently and in larger lettering, with
fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast suited
to an outdoor sign than was the case at the time of the alleged
offence in 2015.
6. UNFAIR TERMS
The charge that was levied is an unfair term (and therefore not
binding) pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts
Regulations 1999.
7. UNREASONABLE CHARGES
The charge that was levied is an unreasonable indemnity clause
F0QZ7J30
pursuant to section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977.
8. NO BREACH OF CONTRACT AND NO GENUINE PRE-ESTIMATE OF LOSS
There was no parking charge levied, the car park at the time of
the alleged offence was ‘free’. On the date of the claimed loss
it was only at approximately 10% capacity, as it was in the
evening, and there was no physical damage caused. There can have
been no loss arising from this incident. Neither can VCS lawfully
include their operational day-to-day running costs in any 'loss'
claimed. I contend there can be no loss shown whatsoever; no
pre-estimate (prior to starting to 'charge for breaches' at this
site) has been prepared or considered in advance. The charge that
was levied is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable)
against me. The initial charge is arbitrary and in no way
proportionate to any alleged breach of contract. Nor does it even
equate to local council charges for all day parking. This is all
the more so for the additional charges which the operator states
accrues after a time of non-payment. This would also apply to any
mentioned costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed
a court order. I would question that if a charge can be
discounted by 40% by early payment that it is unreasonable to
begin with.
9. UNLAWFUL PENALTY CHARGE
Since there was no demonstrable loss/damage and yet a breach of
contract has been alleged for what was a free car park, it can
only remain a fact that this 'charge' is an attempt at extorting
an unlawful charge to impersonate a parking ticket. This is
similar to the decisions in several County Court cases such as
Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman (2008), also
OBServices v Thurlow (review, February 2011), Parking Eye v Smith
(Manchester County Court December 2011) and UKCPS v Murphy (April
2012). The operator could state the letter as an invoice or
request for monies, but chooses to use the wording ‘PARKING
CHARGE NOTICE’ in an attempt to be deemed an official parking
fine similar to what the Police and Council Wardens issue.
10. I believe the facts stated in this Defence Statement are
true.
0
Comments
-
1) yes, you MUST address this omission in the WS and in any skeleton argument that assists you in court, making sure the judge is told if it gets that far
see the beamerguy abuse of process thread abouts extra costs and coupon mad`d paragraphs to object to them
this isnt a legal advice forum and you may not get any legal advice regarding the defence, plus the WS is your story about which we have no knowledge as we are not witnesses, so you are advised to seek out and read a dozen or so by other members so that your own story can be written
your defence cannot be altered, it is what it is, warts and all
the original debt is likely to be £100 , not £160 , so they added that extra £60 on and that is the abuse of process complaint you will make later on0 -
ok, thank you. that is all very helpful.
I understand the defence can't be altered, but to give me some peace of mind, did it look ok just generally?
Thank you.
Gina0 -
Points #6 - 9 were old, and doomed, but the start of your defence is a good basis.
Yes, they go with your WS, along with case law & any other evidence.I no longer have these photographs given the
time period that has elapsed before the claimant brought this
case against me to court. However, on June 29th, 2019, I visited
the same car park at Berkeley Precinct, Sheffield...
...in the defense I said I no longer had photos of the original signage but since have found them, so can I submit these to the court at a later date?
With a VCS case, the WS needs to shoot down theirs.
Read other VCS defence threads from this year as we've demolished their template WS so many times and of you miss doing that then you miss a chance to win by exposing the holes & lies.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Thanks a lot as that is really helpful as it allows me to know what to put the focus on in my witness statement and what not to. I will read other VCS defence threads as you say here so I am up to speed on WS templates and will do my best to expose them.
I have read in other posts here there is a 20 plus week waiting list before a possible court date, so I assume I will have plenty of time to prepare a witness statement, though I realise they will need this well before the court date itself. Thanks again.
Gina0 -
Yep, loads of time. Stick around and show us your WS draft at the time.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
I will ! I wish I had been able to do that with my defense statement but it seems I have enough to go on in that for my witness statement.
One last thing, can I also argue they had no proof who was driving? Though no one else is insured to drive the car. Thanks again. Gina0 -
Yes you can, because I could have been driving your car. Tens of thousands of drivers with fully comp insurance can driver other cars with the keeper's permission.
Thread about the same place here:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6021484/berkeley-precinct-sheffield-vcs-court-forms-submitted
HTHPRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
Yes of course, thanks for that. Gina0
-
Hi
I have a trial date for end of Nov and have submitted a defence, VCS apparently have till end of Oct to either pay a trial fee of £25 or file an application for help with fees, or I am told their claim will be struck off.
My issue is it is going to be very hard to make the allocated trial date now, so I have two questions-
If they have not paid the fee at this point, with less than two weeks to go for them to do so, is it likely on past practice they will do so?
And if they do pay the fee but I can’t attend court, what will happen?
Many thanks off anyone can help. Gina0 -
Yes. They will.If they have not paid the fee at this point, with less than two weeks to go for them to do so, is it likely on past practice they will do so?
You will not only lose, but you will also get clobbered for their rep's costs because they will walk all over your defence and the Judge will only have their version to go by, with no dissent in person from you. We've seen it before and please, please, do not do this.And if they do pay the fee but I can’t attend court, what will happen?
If you really cannot attend due to something unavoidable like impending childbirth, then quickly write to the judge with evidence of your unavoidable issue and ask that the hearing is vacated until the new year.
And send a copy to the Claimant as well. May as well ask, but be quick.
You do realise the letter also tells you of course about your WS & evidence date for you to submit the stuff you will be relying on? So many people skim read and miss that, it drives us mad...PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0
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