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BobProperty

chriserenity wrote: »

.....As a seller it would not be wise to try and mislead the inspector as they will find the 2nd boiler.....

Don't make me laugh. I've been to a house where two teams of plumbers couldn't find an en-suite bathroom and you expect me to believe that some quickly trained ex-burger flipper could find a 2nd boiler? I'll give it until April 2008 at the latest, by which time there will be a newspaper article saying something along the lines of "HIP Inspector missed xxxxxx in my house".

chriserenity wrote: »

When faced with 2 boilers we would work out which is the primary system by looking at it from the point of view of the following criteria:

which system supplies the most rooms
which heats the domestic hot water
which supplies useful heat to the property at the lowest cost
which supplies heat to the living room
......

Just one question: How?

chriserenity

BobProperty wrote: »

Don't make me laugh. I've been to a house where two teams of plumbers couldn't find an en-suite bathroom and you expect me to believe that some quickly trained ex-burger flipper could find a 2nd boiler? I'll give it until April 2008 at the latest, by which time there will be a newspaper article saying something along the lines of "HIP Inspector missed xxxxxx in my house".

Actually there are already newspaper articles describing similar boo-boos by inspectors trained by poor quality training outfits (there is little barrier to stop anyone setting up as a training provider). I say this to agree with you insofar as I recognise there are badly trained inspectors out there as a result of poor government regulation. Trading standards are investigating the bad apples as we speak I believe.

However I disagree with you in the strongest sense that ALL DEAs/HIs are 'quickly trained ex-burger flippers'. Your comment is unfounded and inaccurate. You'll give what until April 2008? The EPC industry? I don't think so, EPCs come from a European directive implimented in every member state. Our EPCs just happen to be wrapped up in HIPs. Whatever happens with the latter will have no impact on the survival of the former. All DEAs must belong to professional bodies regulating their work. I for example belong to Elmhurst Energy who audit 10% or all my inspections and re-inspect 1% to check I am doing my job propertly. Proper redress procedures are also in place. The above applies to ALL accredited energy assessors (currently over five thousand but well on the way to ten thousand).

So how do you find a good inspector? Start by checking if they are accredited by searching for them on the national database: https://www.hcrregister.com/FindAssessorInspector
If they don't come up they're not licenced to do your EPC. You could also ask for a recommendation. If you have a friend who has moved locally recently chances are they can put you in touch with their assessor (assessor's contact details are always on page 2 of the EPC).

BobProperty

chriserenity wrote: »

.......Trading standards are investigating the bad apples as we speak I believe.....

Is that because they managed to put all the cowboys in the building industry out of business already and can turn their attention to HIP trainers? I don't think so.

chriserenity wrote: »

However I disagree with you in the strongest sense that ALL DEAs/HIs are 'quickly trained ex-burger flippers'. Your comment is unfounded and inaccurate. ...

So where have they come from? My complaint has always been they aren't surveyors, they aren't trained like surveyors, so they will never be as good as surveyors and will therefore always have to be cheaper than surveyors (except when it comes to insuring them).

bobproperty wrote:

I'll give it until April 2008 at the latest, by which time there will be a newspaper article saying something along the lines of "HIP Inspector missed xxxxxx in my house".

chriserenity wrote: »

......Actually there are already newspaper articles describing similar boo-boos by inspectors trained by poor quality training outfits.....You'll give what until April 2008? ....

Some of them may be able to read too.

chriserenity wrote: »

The EPC industry? I don't think so, EPCs come from a European directive implimented in every member state. Our EPCs just happen to be wrapped up in HIPs. Whatever happens with the latter will have no impact on the survival of the former. All DEAs must belong to professional bodies regulating their work. I for example belong to Elmhurst Energy who audit 10% or all my inspections and re-inspect 1% to check I am doing my job propertly. Proper redress procedures are also in place. The above applies to ALL accredited energy assessors (currently over five thousand but well on the way to ten thousand).

So we are stuck with it until a government changes the law. In the words of Bob Newhart "and you reckon that's unusual?"

chriserenity wrote: »

So how do you find a good inspector? Start by checking if they are accredited by searching for them on the national database: https://www.hcrregister.com/FindAssessorInspector
If they don't come up they're not licenced to do your EPC. .....

Oh pleeez! Shock horror - an unlicensed energy assessor. Do you really think anyone would care? They are going to produce a document that a minority of buyers may glance at, at best. Because it will be the law people will have to have the documents. It will almost never cause anyone to change their mind about buying a house.

You still haven't answered how you would deal with the 2 boiler house.

allycat999

The person that did our HIP said the energy efficiency of the house took into account how many energy saving lightbulbs were in place. When we move we will take them with us, whats the point!!!!

Doozergirl

Energy saving lightbulbs are 39p these days.

Save yourself the energy by just getting some new ones from John Lewis, please.

chriserenity

BobProperty wrote: »

Is that because they managed to put all the cowboys in the building industry out of business already and can turn their attention to HIP trainers? I don't think so.

I can't speak for trading standards. If you have concerns about their efforts to multi task in monitoring effective training in the HIP industry while at the same time enforcing regulation in other industries I suggest you take it up with them.

BobProperty wrote: »

So where have they come from? My complaint has always been they aren't surveyors, they aren't trained like surveyors, so they will never be as good as surveyors and will therefore always have to be cheaper than surveyors (except when it comes to insuring them).

DEAs come from a variety of backgrounds and regardless of what that may be all DEAs must sit exams and submit test EPCs for independent marking, their work is monitored and re-inspected and all have to undertake a required amount of CPD.

A Domestic Energy Assessor does not attempt to perform the duties of a chartered surveyor. DEAs perform domestic energy inspections and are qualified to do just that and no more. No one is suggesting the skill level of a DEA is equivalent to that of a chartered surveyor. By the way, chartered surveyors are NOT qualified to perform energy inspections without the same training received by DEAs. DEAs usually pay for their own PII/PLI insurance usually through their accreditation scheme as part of the fee they pay when submitting EPCs.

The degree of quality control to become a DEA is quite rigorous so poorly trained inspectors will soon be caught out my the systems set up to regulate the industry. The bad apples I spoke of before will likely be removed in time.

You're complaining about DEAs being too cheap for your taste (on money saving expert?!?)? When you come to sell your house, tell it to the DEA doing the inspection and pay them the higher fee you feel comfortable with. Just make sure they're sitting down when you do?

BobProperty wrote: »

So we are stuck with it until a government changes the law. In the words of Bob Newhart "and you reckon that's unusual?"

Unless we pull out of Europe our Government has no power to cease meeting the requirements set by the EEC unless it wants to face VERY heavy international level fines. I can't see that happening any time soon can you? Perhaps instead of asking if we are stuck with it you could ask how can it benefit us. Glass half full and all that hmm?

BobProperty wrote: »

Oh pleeez! Shock horror - an unlicensed energy assessor. Do you really think anyone would care? They are going to produce a document that a minority of buyers may glance at, at best. Because it will be the law people will have to have the documents. It will almost never cause anyone to change their mind about buying a house.

I recall they said the same thing about washing machines and light bulbs when they put the A-G ratings on them. How many of us look at a car's fuel consumption when deciding to buy one? The same A-G information (and more) is now available for homes in the EPC. Buyer disinterest in the EPC is IMO a product of a lack of information about the document. The government and indeed the wider HIP industry as a whole has failed to step up to this education challenge. It is only a matter of time until EPC information becomes as important in buying homes as in the examples I just mentioned. Thats what I'm doing on here - trying to get the message across!

BobProperty wrote: »

You still haven't answered how you would deal with the 2 boiler house.

The assessor would look at the entire heating setup of the property including the boilers, radiators, any fixed room heaters and any portable appliances and use the criteria I mentioned in my earlier post (in varying degrees of importance) to identify a primary heating system, a secondary heating system, a method to control the primary system and a method of heating the domestic hot water. Information will be pulled from documentation on site, manufacturers databases and the SEDBUK database to correctly identify the components present and the information will be entered in part using a code system to represent the information in the software we use to produce the EPC. Does this answer your question?

chriserenity

allycat999 wrote: »

The person that did our HIP said the energy efficiency of the house took into account how many energy saving lightbulbs were in place. When we move we will take them with us, whats the point!!!!

Yes, thats a good point actually. I remember learning in school that when glass first became widespread in English homes, people used to remove the panes and take them to their new home as they were so rare. We are just seeing the modern day equivalent, but as Doozergirl has just pointed out they are really coming down in price now and are widely available.

Anyway, it'll be a non-issue in a few years time as they are phasing out the old incandescent bulbs completely.

seven-day-weekend

I would want to see a survey and up-to-date searches - neither of which a HIP contains. I'm not interested in whether the property has low-energy lightbulbs or loft insulation, I can put those in myself.

Waste of money.

chriserenity

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

I would want to see a survey and up-to-date searches - neither of which a HIP contains. I'm not interested in whether the property has low-energy lightbulbs or loft insulation, I can put those in myself.

Waste of money.

First, the EPC is a result of a survey, a survey of thermal performance and carbon impact conducted by a trained energy assessor. Secondly, there are HIP products available whereby if the searches are deemed out of date by the buyer's solicitor the HIP provider will re-order them for free at no further cost to the seller or buyer.

The EPC isn't just a list of energy saving improvements for you to tick off, its a comprehensive document breaking down each improvement and assigning a yearly monetary saving to each item so you can work out if its worth doing or not once you know how much its going to cost to install. Also, the EPC gives you forewarning about whether you can actually improve the property or not. Sometimes improvements are not advisable or even possible. E.g.

If you're in a conservation area
If the property is significantly exposed to the elements
If there is evidence of interstitial condensation
If the loft has evidence of damp penetration
If the property is timber framed
If the property has solid walls vs cavity walls
And so on.

Further to this each EPC is comparable to any other EPC so by comparing the 'epc graphs' which are mandatory for all written sales particulars where a HIP is ordered you can gain an understanding of what your bills might be and what standard you can bring the property up to in that regard - why would we ignore this information? Do you ignore this information when its presented elsewhere?

Now if you're able to judge all that yourself without the EPC the I take your point. However, were I a betting man I would bet the majority of homeowners wouldn't be able to.

Hence the EPC.
Its here to stay.
Make the most of it?

seven-day-weekend

But actually I'm not terribly interested in that information. I wouldn't care if it wasn't there. If it is presented to me I will look at it, but as I say the things I WOULD be interested in are not contained within the HIP.