port of wells - civil enforcement ltd

savingmoneyisfun

Hi All, hope you lovely people can help or advise.

I arrived at the port of wells car park on 24/02/19 at 13.40 and found it very busy and full but I decided to wait in the car park for a space to become available, after around 8-10 minutes a space became available, I parked in the space correctly and proceeded to get our ticket but I didn't have enough change. I went to the local arcade opposite and got change. When I returned to pay for ticket I realised the arcade had given me an old pound coin(which wouldn't work) so I quickly went back got it changed and bought our parking ticket at 13.55 (£4.50 for all day up until midnight). This would all be seen on the cctv of me going to arcade and back for change. Considering we waited in the car park for a space before we were parked. I paid within 5 minutes of parking and still have the ticket clearly showing our registration number. We honestly never saw or noticed a sign saying we only have 10mins to park and pay. We only parked for just over an hour.

I've appealed via popla and they have stated that civil enforcement have issued a ticket correctly :mad::mad:

POPLA CONCLUSION
“Signs in the above car park clearly advise payment for parking must be made within 10 minutes of arrival and on this occasion you failed to do so”. It is the duty of the appellant to ensure that when they have entered a car park that they have understood the terms and conditions before deciding to park. On this occasion by remaining parked at the site the appellant accepted the terms and conditions. As they did not pay within 10 minutes of arrival, they did not adhere to the terms and conditions. As such, I conclude that the operator issued the PCN correctly.


Called citizens advice and not very helpful at all.
I really don't want to pay it, please advise what I could do

Quentin

Everyone is asked to read up on this in the newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum before starting a new thread

Go there now to get an understanding of the game you are now caught up in

#4 explains what happens after popla fails

Fruitcake

You should edit your post to remove information about who did what. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper, who are two different people. Parking scammers read these fora.
Do this before you do anything else.

Do a search for other threads concerning this place as it crops up regularly. Set the search function to "show threads" when you do.

The_Deep

There are at least four recent threads about this car park on here.

AFAIAA, it is covered by bye laws, and keeper liability under POFA does not apply.


Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Umkomaas

I really don't want to pay it, please advise what I could do

It's highly likely you will need to deal with the issue of a court claim, and should it get to a hearing (quite often with CEL they don't if you've got all your ducks lined up correctly) you'll need to persuade a Judge of your case.

You need to read all recent Port of Wells CEL (keywords for forum search) cases and get to understand the issues that might give you the advantage.

If you've admitted to being the driver in any of your appeals 'I parked' is classically sufficient of an admission, then the Byelaws are somewhat irrelevant.

HOW TO USE THE FORUM SEARCH FUNCTION:

Hit your 'Back' button to get back to the forum thread list. On the bar just above the threads you'll see the 'Search' function. Click on the 'Advanced Search' button and on the following page place your keyword(s) in the 'Search By Keyword(s)' and make sure the 'Show Results As' button (at the foot of the window) is changed from 'Threads' to 'Posts'.

Coupon-mad

This would all be seen on the cctv of me going to arcade and back for change.

There's no CCTV. ANPR is not CCTV.

Do read the NEWBIES thread about court claims (post #2 of that sticky thread).

busylizzy222

The signage here is not adequate/fit for purpose imo, its an extremely small and busy parking area and the signs are small and virtually the same as the ones they had before Civil Enforcement took over the parking last year. It feels like a trap!

savingmoneyisfun

Hi All,

They are still not giving up, I'm now at letter before action stage. I've seen a few recent successes so fingers crossed.
I've written/copied and taken the following to be sent back to them today. please see below. my question is :- is this ok and would you also add what you've already told them regarding what happened? ( I bought a ticket 6mins late, but I still bought a ticket and still have it)


Letter Before Action - PCN : **********

Dear Sir or Madam,

With reference to your letter dated .... 2019, I deny any liability.

I am seeking debt advice and therefore, pursuant to the pre-action protocol for debt claims 4.2, I require that you suspend action for 30 days.

In addition I request that you supply me with the following information ;

• A copy of the byelaws that apply to Wells Harbour and the car park at Port of Wells, including a map that shows the extent of the area to which the byelaws apply.
• A full, un-redacted copy of the contract that allows you to operate at Port of Wells Car Park, The Quay, NR23 1AT.
• If the above unredacted version is not to be supplied until Witness Statement stage of the proceedings, I will accept under the PAP protocols requiring open dealing and efforts to resolve disputes, a partially redacted version as long as the dates and location, terms of service and the agreement are transparent, along with the hours/days/dates of enforcement and listed contraventions, and the agreed grace period, parking charge and any exemptions or seasonal arrangements that the landowner set.
• A breakdown of how the alleged overstay is split - i.e. your client's records as to exactly when the car drove in, and when the button was pressed to generate a ticket, as well as the minutes and seconds alleged between ticket expiry and the final exit image.
• A copy of all ANPR images captured of this car on the material date, given that this was Spring half term and very busy and there was likely to be some hold up of queuing traffic at the entrance and/or exit, and given that it has been reported that ANPR camera systems take several images over the seconds or minutes, as a car works its way in or out of a site where the road outside was congested with a nearby traffic light system and roundabouts. It will not be enough to merely repeat the 'first in/last out' images that the ANPR system defaults to process for penalty charges.


• All evidence Civil Enforcement Ltd. hold that would identify the driver to the court ( NOT the identity of the person who purchased the ticket ).
• Evidence of the time that the vehicle was parked ( NOT car park entry, payment and exit times ).
• Contemporaneous images of signs inside the area of the car park in relation to where vehicle **** *** was parked. Also, show how the driver’s view of the signs were affected by volume pf people and vehicles that was situated in the car park on dd/mm/2019
• Contemporaneous images of signs and their location relative to the car park entrance ( to show how they would be seen by a driver approaching the car park on the B1105 road, from either direction, prior to entering it).
• Contemporaneous images of signs in the car park erected by or belonging to the Wells Harbour Commissioners or other third parties.
• Details of improvements to signs and lighting that have been carried out by Civil Enforcement Ltd, Wells Harbour Commissioners or other third parties since dd/mm/2019
• All other evidence that you will rely on in court.

Also, I require a full breakdown of all costs that Civil Enforcement Ltd. is claiming, to show which costs are included within the original £100 charge and those that are additional costs. I am concerned that there is an element of double recovery in the £182 that Civil Enforcement Ltd. is claiming, which the court will view as an abuse of process.

Please send the requested information to me at the above address. I look forward to receiving your reply.


Please let me know what you think. I've also complained to my local and north norfolk MP'S

FrankCannon

@savingmoneyisfun, are CEL chasing you as keeper or driver ? If it's as keeper, have you checked that the NtK is compliant with POFA 2012 ? Also, are you aware that the grace period for buying a ticket was changed to 15 minutes in mid-2019 ?

You probably don't need the wording " ( NOT the identity of the person who purchased the ticket )" as you bought a ticket from a machine rather than via the PhoneAndPay app.

Fruitcake

If you intend to rely on Byelaws and/or the PoFA 2012 in your defence then you had better hope the scammers haven't taken a screengrab of your initial post where you identified the driver, and didn't edit your post afterwards despite being advised to do so.

savingmoneyisfun

YAY.......Success. Another one bites the dust. Confirmation of cancellation received almost a year after I parked.
I was fully prepared to go to court and not give up without a fight.