Reconciling COPE to contracted out periods and GMP

tarbat

I'm 62. My state pension forecast shows a COPE figure of about £88 per week = £4,600 pa. I'm now trying to reconcile that to when I may have been contracted out and what GMP I can expect to receive when I'm 65.

Is there anyway of finding out which years I was contracted out?

Over the years I was a member of 9 company pension schemes, and so far only one (the Gas Board) have admitted I'm owed GMP from them, at £2,170 pa. So I'm left trying to track down where the other £2,500 is. I vaguely remember taking a contribution refund from a couple of the schemes, but presumably any GMP entitlement would have remained in that scheme?

I have also been receiving a "Protected Rights" pension for the last 12 years (I retired at 50) from my last company scheme, but that's only about £1,600. I believe that relates to post-88 contracting out, so would that be included in the COPE figure?

Any help appreciated. Just trying to make sure I'm not losing out on GMP I'm owned from some very old pension schemes.

dunstonh

GMP is by product of being contracted out with certain types of plans. If you contracted out with a money purchase pension, then there can be no GMP.

The question you need to be asking is not about GMP but whether the pension was contracted out or not.

I have also been receiving a "Protected Rights" pension for the last 12 years (I retired at 50) from my last company scheme, but that's only about £1,600. I believe that relates to post-88 contracting out, so would that be included in the COPE figure?

The COPE figure is largely a guestimate figure. Just an indication.

However, "former" protected rights would only have come from being contracted out. Protected rights were reclassified as non-protected rights some years back. Modern schemes no longer differentiate between them but legacy plans on old software often still separate them as "former" protected rights. You do see the occasional scheme still refer to them as just "protected rights" but that is just because they haven't changed their software as the costs are not worth it.

xylophone

See post 23

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6009662/warning-double-check-state-pension-forecasts-after-govt-admits-significant-errors-mse-news&page=2

and

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-pension-fact-sheets/contracting-out-and-why-we-may-have-included-a-contracted-out-pension-equivalent-cope-amount-when-you-used-the-online-service

The pension you get from your workplace or personal pension scheme for the periods you were contracted out, should include an amount that, in most cases, will be the equivalent of the additional State Pension you would have got if you had not been contracted out. This is your Contracted Out Pension Equivalent (COPE) amount.

An estimate of your COPE will be shown if you use the online Check your State Pension service or if you request a State Pension Statement through the post. The COPE amount is based on your National Insurance contribution record up to 5 April 2016 used to calculate your Starting Amount for the new State Pension. The COPE estimate shown in your statement is based on April 2016 State Pension rates.

If you were a member of 2 or more contracted out schemes, the COPE amount shown is based on all your schemes and covers all the years you were contracted out.

We will not know the exact amount your scheme will pay you as a result of contracting-out as it will depend on the actual rules of your private scheme, and possibly any investment choices you may make.

tarbat

Thanks for the quick reply.

dunstonh wrote: »

GMP is by product of being contracted out with certain types of plans. If you contracted out with a money purchase pension, then there can be no GMP.

So the period when I was contracted out in a defined contributions scheme wouldn't have contributed to the GMP that COPE represents? Or does COPE represent more than just GMP?

That still leaves me with the dilemma, how can I find out which schemes I was contracted out? I can get a list of my NI contributions from HMRC, but that doesn't identify which years were contracted out. If I can find out that, I can then try tracking down the relevant pension schemes to claim my GMP pension from them.

As I say, I've found one scheme (Gas Board) who wrote to me out-of-the-blue last month to tell me about my GMP from them, and that was from 1982 and only accounts for part of the COPE estimate.

tarbat

xylophone wrote: »

See post 23
FORUM LINK

Thanks for the link. I guess I'm at the very first stage of the process in tracking down any GMP due. So far I've messaged HMRC asking for a breakdown of which years I was contracted out.

I would imagine that millions of people will need to go through the same exercise of tracking down lost GMPs. It never occurred to me all those years ago that even though I left a company scheme without any pension entitlement, there was still a GMP sitting there ready for when I reach 65.

Silvertabby

You'll never reconcile your COPE with your GMP as the two aren't directly linked. COPE is really a notional figure, estimated when DWP calculated your foundation amount (your State pension as at April 2016) and never to be seen/used again.

The closest comparison is that the COPE (which is included in your contracted out occupational pension(s)) replaces the SERPS/SP2 that you gave up by contracting out.

xylophone

So the period when I was contracted out in a defined contributions scheme wouldn't have contributed to the GMP that COPE represents? Or does COPE represent more than just GMP?

For a full explanation read

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/447195/new-state-pension--effect-of-being-contracted-out.pdf

For "Rebate Derived Amount" read COPE.

For Basic State Pension amount read £119.30

For New State Pension amount read £155.65.

tarbat

xylophone wrote: »

For "Rebate Derived Amount" read COPE.

Thanks for the links, and this particular statement. So, if I understand this correctly, all the periods when I was contracted out, even in a defined contributions scheme, count towards the COPE amount. Is that correct?

The point is, AFAIK these periods have already been converted into a 25% lump sum and then a "protected rights" pension that I started receiving when I was 50. Is there some way of taking these amounts from 12 years ago and calculating roughly how much of my COPE these account for?

Some numbers:
1. COPE = £87.98 pw
2. GMP pension due from Gas Board DB scheme (1982 - 1984) = £41.74 from age 65
3. Contracted out DC schemes from 1990 - 2006, giving a:
- Lump Sum of £10,034 taken in 2007
- Flat annuity of £30.63 pw started in 2007

So, how can I try to reconcile the lump sum and flat annuity taken 12 years ago to the remaining COPE?

HMRC replied to my query with a simple "We do not hold records for individual scheme members so cannot provide the information you have requested." Guess I'll have to try the DWP instead.

[Deleted User]

Did you say above that you had some contributions refunded, if so then your employer should have refunded the NI contributions back to HMRC
As such you have no GMP
I think this is explained in one of the posts on this forum, and the poster found out some of his companies hadn’t refunded them

[Deleted User]

Here was the post
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75897797#Comment_75897797

tarbat

So, very helpful chat with someone from HMRC on their 03002003500 number. He took me through all the different periods I've been contracted out, and which have been converted into my protected rights annuity. I have 6 separate periods of contracting out, and only one of those periods seems strange, as its for a period when I was at two companies but HMRC have it listed against another third company, suggesting that the pensions were probably transferred to the other company. So I now need to track down who manages the pension schemes for the missing companies.

It still leaves me with a conundrum. How to calculate the equivalent COPE amount for the lump sum and flat annuities I started receiving 12 years ago for my "protected rights". Any ideas?