Dispute with builder he's threatening court action

Esther74

I employed a builder over a year ago to do some renovations on a house i had just bought. I went through the process of getting quotes form three builders and the one i employed was recommended via my gardener, who i found through BARK. His quote was inline with others and initially i had no reason to be concerned.

I had bought most of the materials all the the fittings for the kitchen and bathroom , except for some minor materials like plastic plumbing pipe, tile adhesive and similar. The original quote was for kitchen, utility and electrical work and after work had started i asked if he was able to install the bathroom within the original timeframe and he said he could. on the 19th of December he told me he was taking 3 weeks off and would not be back until the 12th January, at this point my house was unliveable and i had originally wanted to be in by mid december.

He then said he would be back on the 4th and continue to the agreed deadline of the 20th January. One week after he came back he left the job and ignored all contact for a week and a half. When he finally did email me he claimed he had had a breakdown because his work load was too stressful. At his point i had had other builders in to quote to finish the work because i had no idea if he would return or not. it was then i became aware of the unreasonable nature of his quote, for example he quote £1300 to install a shower cubicle, of which i had supplied all of the materials apart from items that i had mentioned above.

after he got back in contact he promised he would be back on the job and complete items, listed via text message, on certain days and i have replied after the date stated asking why things weren't completed. As he had already gone AWOL once i was a bit on edge that he would do again, and i also started to become concerned about his quality of work as he was attending the house in the evenings to complete work.

I ask for an itemised break down of his quote as for the shower cubicle mentioned above he actually quoted £1326.24 so i wanted to know the amount of labour he was charging because he wasn't actually working on my job during the day. He then refused to return until things were sorted and subsequently ran out of time to complete the work, i did tell him not to return after he refused to attend the house. So i now have a shower cubicle which leaks, is badly installed the screen overlaps the tray and he left grout all over the tray which i haven't been able to remove.

He then sent debt collectors after me, I did send a letter offering to pay an amount which i saw as reasonable but he never responded to that, and now over a year later is threatening court action. Does he fact that he walked off the job in the first place give me any leg to stand on? there is a lot more to this story but this is the gist.

Doozergirl

Could you help us help you by using some grammar, please?

Paragraphs are a good start. It's overwhelming as it is.

Esther74

a bit stressed about it all to be honest, but thanks for your helpful reply.

k3lvc

Esther74 wrote: »

a bit stressed about it all to be honest, but thanks for your helpful reply.

'Helpful' would be giving the relevant information in your opening post but to summarise

Over a year ago you asked a builder recommended by your gardener to do some work with materials you'd already bought.

Your agreed a price (quotation or estimate ?) and he started

Part way through he told you he was unable to finish as he was going on holiday and you accepted this :eek:

You've then got into a debate, before the jobs finished to your satisfaction, on the costings for each individual part at which point he's dcided you're going to be an issue so he's cut his losses and is claiming for work done to date

Is the work now completed by someone else or are you still (18months later) without a bathroom ?

Doozergirl

You accepted a quote which was in line with two others. That's how you decide what is acceptable to you. Beyond that point, you don't get to question. You should have paid him to do the job you agreed at the price you agreed.

If he failed to proceed diligently then you still need to behave in a professional manner and write to him, giving him a reasonable timescale within which to finish. You need to provide adequate warnings of your intentions to employ other people.

On the face of it, he's quoted for a job which you then told him you weren't going to pay and so he's made the choice not to proceed with works on the basis that he's not getting paid. Any other tradesperson wouldn't react much differently, regardless of agreed completion dates.

There are two issues. One, admittedly, is his attendance, but that wasn't rectified because the job was ultimately ultimately halted by your telling him you weren't paying what was agreed. To stop work would be reasonable if you're not getting paid for it.

Neither of you have covered yourselves in glory, but you can't pretend that you haven't broken contract.

Doozergirl

Having re-read the OP; after your demand for a reduction, he refused and said he wasn't coming back until the original contract price was agreed to. Fair enough. You then actually told him not to bother coming back at all. Not fair.

He didn't walk off the job, you kicked him off.

I think he arguably has you bang to rights.

Clive_Woody

Not sure if the holidays were expected or part of the agreed timeline for completing the job, but if he was coming around in the evenings to try and get the jobs done then it sounds like he had taken on too much work. This may also account for the poor standard of work you mention. He sounds unprofessional and disorganised, but at least maybe he might have sorted out his poor work if he had been allowed back.

To be honest if he agreed a time frame for the original jobs then told you he could also fit a bathroom within the same dates I would have been very suspicious, unless he was bringing in extra workers (which you don't mention).

As mentioned, the time to negotiate on price is before you have agreed on a total cost, not after you agreed and he started work. Getting too hung up on individual line items within a quote can be problematic, especially if you were happy with the overall cost quoted.

Esther74

Clive_Woody wrote: »

Not sure if the holidays were expected or part of the agreed timeline for completing the job, but if he was coming around in the evenings to try and get the jobs done then it sounds like he had taken on too much work. This may also account for the poor standard of work you mention. He sounds unprofessional and disorganised, but at least maybe he might have sorted out his poor work if he had been allowed back.

To be honest if he agreed a time frame for the original jobs then told you he could also fit a bathroom within the same dates I would have been very suspicious, unless he was bringing in extra workers (which you don't mention).

As mentioned, the time to negotiate on price is before you have agreed on a total cost, not after you agreed and he started work. Getting too hung up on individual line items within a quote can be problematic, especially if you were happy with the overall cost quoted.

This is the problem, I was happy with the overall cost initially as i said, it was in line with other quotes, it's the additional works and all the extras he is trying to charge me for. The issues all became apparent after he left the job and then refused to return until this was resolved. I never asked for a price reduction i ask for a more detailed breakdown, so i could see his allocation of labour cost.

When he sent his invoice it included items that had been charged for twice, items which he had said one price verbally and then charge significantly more when he sent the invoice, and on that basis i wouldn't have agreed to the extra work if i have been given the proper price in the first place. It also included items which had never even been started and items for which he had taken goods i had purchased and never returned. He refused to acknowledge any concerns I had over his work saying i had agreed to what he had done.

He never offered arbitration resolution and ignored my letter offering a payment, i have never said i wouldn't pay him. He sent debt collectors after me before any concerns from myself were resolved, he now claims that the letter of authority from the debt collector was his arbitration offer. So ultimately for a job which was originally quoted at around £3k of which i had already paid 50% upfront he is now trying to charge me £7k mainly for adding in a bathroom.

He is also trying to charge nearly £1k for electric work which wasn't in the original quote, and that he said i needed, but has never given me a certificate for this and i found out he's not registered to sign off this type of work.

I raised concerns because it became apparent that his prices were unreasonably inflated as he did not need to supply any goods, and i wanted him to clarify his quotation.

He is also claiming he left goods at my property for items of work which were unfinished and of which i have never seen.

The work he did before his holiday i don't have any issue with, it's the work afterwards, when his standard of work and his duty of care started to slip significantly, that i am unhappy about. I'm also unhappy about his reaction to my request for clarification, and his subsequent harassment of me for payment. I sent a letter offering a payment figure which he has never acknowledge or tried to negotiate. And now he says he sees no reason not to charge the full amount and if we cant come to an agreement he will start proceedings against me.

I have obviously now had the essential work completed and this was at extra cost to me. Yes i did tell him not to come back but this was when he was over the completion time from my 'time is of the essence' email to him and after his original disappearing act.

Mistral001

The OP has to bear in mind that builders can have perfectly legitimate reasons for not giving detailed breakdowns, the main one being that they do not want competitors to know their rates. The rate they charge for materials and labour are usually considered confidential and to refuse to give them is quite understandable. The fact that you are a customer paying for the service does not give you entitlement to have knowledge of their rates.

tacpot12

I'm not sure his prices were inflated because he didn't have to supply the goods needed. £1300 for a shower cubicle is not an unreasonable price for the labour. I think you are underestimating the amount of work involved.

It is also that case that in a large project, there will always be discoveries that mean additional costs arise. A contract for building work should specify how these discoveries are to be handled. It is also the case that some builders skimp on their due diligence when preparing quotes and expect to be able to charge the customer for anything unexpected. The quotation should include the cost of any work that is reasonably foreseeable as being needed, e.g. electrics during a bathroom refit.

You can't really say that that you are not going to pay him for electrical work just because he's not registered to sign off this type of work, because you don't know whether he was planning to sub the work to an electrician or not - you didn't give him the chance. If he found problems in the electrical installation that meant he could not continue, he really should have consulted you as to what you wanted him to do. Some of the issues may not have actually been stopping him, and I think you should have been given the chance to get an opinion from an electrician as to what needed to be done to allow him to continue.

If you go to court, the court should side with you where the work is substandard. The builder has potentially ruined perfectly good materials you provided. I would point out in your claim or counter-claim to the court any materials that cannot be reinstalled correctly because he botched the work. He should also have insurance covering his risks.

Accepting prices verbally is a bad idea. If the builder gives you a verbal price when discussing a problem, you need to email him immediately saying "Re our conversation today, you proposed to charge £xxxx to fix this issue. Please let me know immediately if I have misunderstood your quoted price for the work". If he then doesn't get back to you, you can have some comfort that the price is as agreed.

I can't imaging what evidence he will be able to provide that he left goods with you, unless he has delivery notes of goods that his business purchased and that have a delivery address of your house. It would not be uncommon for large items and for material deliveries to be delivered directly to site, but only the builder or one of his employees should be signing the delivery note from the merchant or vendor. If you have signed them on his behalf, a judge might infer you were accepting the goods into your care.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Answers to questions like this on this forum tend to go in the builders favour (maybe because the people replying are builders I don't know).

OP the builder should send you a letter detailing their intention to commence court action, although they can begin the process without this the court may not award them costs if they don't.

The Consumer Rights Act dictates that a service must be carried out with reasonable care and skill.

Should this not be done the consumer has the right to a price reduction.

The OP raised concerns about the quality of work and wished to discuss the price, the trader ignored this and walked off, they then ignored an offer of payment.

The Consumer Rights Act also dictates the price should be reasonable.

I don't think it's as clear cut as the above posts make out and you might find a more balanced view on what the court would decide on a forum like Legal Beagles

You'd be in a better position in court if you have documented detail of why you felt the work was not of satisfactory standard and why you felt the work for which you was not given a fixed priced to begin with was being charged at an unreasonable amount.