Euro Car Park

Ta_sha

Hi, I have to say with regret that I found this website/forum later that I would wish... I have already submitted an appeal to Euro Car Park prior to reading advise on this site. I admitted I was a driver. My question is: is there still hope/sense to carry on and appeal to POPLA and if yes, what my appeal should be, taking into account the above mentioned circumstances.

To cut a long story short I overstayed in the parking for about 8-10 minutes due to late appointment. The first letter came by post (no windscreen ticket) with no pictures, just my number plate and the wording:
On xx date the vehicle xxx entered Piccadilly Stockport at 13:52:31 and departed at 15:06:07. The permit purchased did not cover the date and time of parking.

First of all on my ticket (I have it) the expiry time is 14.54 so they already stole 2 minutes at the beginning which I used for searching the free parking space and then for pay and display. Second, I definitely returned earlier than 15.06 and again the camera didn’t take into account the time needed to get out of car park and by the way the surface of that parking is awful with lots of potholes so I needed to constantly manoeuvre left and right before getting out of the car park. If they charge people so much why would not they invest in a good road surface?

In my appeal I also attached the scan of my parking display ticket clearly showing charge of 1 pound instead of 80p (no change was given and no note was given on the machine about not giving change) and the time 13.54 instead of 13.52

Obviously my appeal was rejected. I received an email with PDF having POPLA code

I know now my first appeal was stupid and unprofessional and need your advise on POPLA appeal in this situation. Should it be different in terms of wording, time of appeal etc
Any advice highly appreciated
Thank you

Redx

look at the examples and recomendations in post #3 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread

download and read the BPA CoP , January 2018 edition, especially read clause #13 about 2 grace periods, one to park up and comply , the other the period to leave

you cannot use NTK times and POFA as an admitted driver, so concentrate on no landowner contract , grace periods , anpr errors , poor and inadequate signage etc (so nothing about POFA as it does not apply with driver appeals)

post your proposed draft below when completed, for critique

in future , DO NOT ADMIT stuff like being the driver , less is more

Coupon-mad

Your first appeal was fine, as ECP probably complied with the POFA anyway so there's no point hiding behind being the 'keeper' in this case.

FIRST - if this is a retail site, complain to the Store Manager(s) who can cancel it before POPLA is started (but probably not after). DO THAT NOW! TRY HARD.

On xx date the vehicle xxx entered Piccadilly Stockport at 13:52:31 and departed at 15:06:07. The permit purchased did not cover the date and time of parking.

First of all on my ticket (I have it) the expiry time is 14.54 so they already stole 2 minutes at the beginning which I used for searching the free parking space and then for pay and display. Second, I definitely returned earlier than 15.06 and again the camera didn’t take into account the time needed to get out of car park and by the way the surface of that parking is awful with lots of potholes so I needed to constantly manoeuvre left and right before getting out of the car park. If they charge people so much why would not they invest in a good road surface?

Do you have dashcam footage or Google Location info on your phone?

I bet the ANPR cameras are not synched with the PDT machine clock, as you are sure you returned well before the purported ''ANPR exit time'' (oh yes, ECP?) and it is LUDICROUS for them to suggest it took you just ninety seconds to enter, drive round past pedestrians to find a space, then park, pick up your bags, exit the car (& help any children to alight, if true), then lock the car, then walk over to the nearest machine, queue to use that machine if busy, then read the signs for the tariffs, then find the right change if you paid in cash, then pay...

No way was that all done in ninety seconds.

So, do you have digital timing that proves them wrong?

Your POPLA appeal can be like other observation period/grace period ones, and what you say above about the car park surface, potholes and the like, is something to say to POPLA to explain the 11 minutes at the end, as well as stuff about how the car park was busy (was it a Bank Holiday weekend, or event day, etc?) That explains the time taken.

Here is how I suggest people set that POPLA appeal point out:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75708021#Comment_75708021

A grace periods point re:

(a) arrival time, pointing out the above makes it obvious the ANPR clock is not synched with the PDT machine clock (show proof if you have dashcam or Google timing proving you were not even there yet!)
(b) leaving time, and why it took 11 mins, explaining the queues/Bank Holiday, potholes, pedestrians - and embed a scan of the ticket.

And link POPLA to read this BPA article about the two periods before and after paid-for time, AND quote from it in detail, in case the Assessor can't be bothered to click on links:

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

And, whilst that detailed explanation about grace periods is your FIRST point, I don't mean that is the ONLY point! Read any Euro POPLA thread you search for, and soon you will see a pattern and how people use the forum POPLA templates.

You will also see that if people lose at POPLA, guess what they do? They IGNORE ECP.

Ta_sha

Hi guys, thank you for your replies and valuable advice

I had a look at a few winning appeals and combined them into my own taking into account my circumstances

To answer your question unfortunately the car park in question is not a retail site

I used a Google map on my phone on the way to the car park and back home but since my Location History is disabled on the phone I don’t think I can locate the route and the timings

Here is my suggested POPLA Appeal for your verdict. Looking forward to your comments



POPLA Verification Code: XXXXXXX
Vehicle Registration: XXXXXXX

I, the registered keeper of this vehicle, received a letter dated xxxxxx acting as a notice to the registered keeper (NtK). My appeal to the Euro Car Parks was submitted and rejected via an email dated xxxxxx. I contend that I, as the keeper, am not liable for the alleged parking charge and wish to appeal against it on the following grounds:

1. Grace Period: BPA Code of Practice
2. No evidence of Period Parked – NtK doesn’t meet PoFA 2012 requirements
3. Vehicle Images contained in PCN: BPA Code of Practice – non-compliance
4. The ANPR System is Neither Reliable nor Accurate
5. The Signs Fail to Transparently Warn Drivers of what the ANPR Data will be used for

1. Grace Period: BPA Code of Practice – noncompliance
The BPA’s Code of Practice states (13) that there are two grace periods: one at the end (of a minimum of 10 minutes) and one at the start.

BPA’s Code of Practice (13.2) states that:

“You should allow the driver a reasonable “grace period” in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission, you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.”

BPA’s Code of Practice (13.4) states that:

“You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes

On my parking ticket (attached) the expiry time is 14.54 hence start of the parking period is 13.54 as opposed to the time specified on the PCN (13.52) so already 2 minutes were stolen by Euro Car Parks upon the entry.

The BPA’s guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator’s conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket”. Looking at the time on my parking ticket and the time on PCN I can clearly say that Euro Car Parks ignored my right as a driver for a grace period upon the entry. Same happened upon leaving the car park when again the time needed to get out of car park avoiding numerous potholes was not taken into account. The car park surface needs improving indeed, it looks like a mined field, in addition it was Saturday – always busy day in any town with a lot of pedestrians and other drivers.

2. No evidence of Period Parked – NtK doesn’t meet PoFA 2012 requirements

PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 paragraph 9 refers at numerous times to the “period of parking”. Paragraph 9(2)(a) requires the NtK to:

“specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates”

The NtK states that the vehicle “entered (location) at (entry time) and departed at (exit time)”. At no stage do Euro Car Parks explicitly specify the period of parking to which the notice relates, as required by PoFA 2012.

Euro Car Parks NtK states “we are using cameras to capture images of vehicles entering and leaving the car park to calculate their length of stay”. It is not a privilege of Euro Car Parks to substitute “entry/exit” or “length of stay” with “period of parking” – and hold the keeper liable as a result.

By virtue of the nature of an ANPR system recording only entry and exit times, Euro Car Parks are not able to state the period of parking.

3. Vehicle Images contained in PCN: BPA Code of Practice – non-compliance
The BPA Code of Practice clearly states in section 20.5a that photographs must refer to and confirm the incident which you claim was unauthorised. A date and time stamp should be included on the photograph.

The PCN in question contains two close-up images of the vehicle number plate. Neither of these images contains a date and time stamp “on the photograph” nor do they clearly identify the vehicle entering or leaving this car park (which is also not identifiable in the photos as of any particular location at all).

The time and date stamp have been inserted into the letter underneath (but not part of) the images. The images have also been cropped to only show the number plate. As these are not the original images, I require Euro Car Parks Limited to produce evidence of the original “uncropped” images with the required date and time stamp and to evidence where the photographs show the car to be when there is a lack of any marker or sign to indisputably relate these photos to the location stated.


4. The ANPR System is Neither Reliable nor Accurate

Paragraph 21.3 of the BPA Code of Practice states that parking companies are required to ensure ANPR equipment is maintained and is in correct working order.

I require ECP to provide records with the location of the cameras used in this instance, together with dates and times of when the equipment was checked, maintained and synchronised with the timer which stamps the phone images to ensure the accuracy of the images.

As “grace periods” are of significant importance in this case and the parking charge is founded entirely on two images of the vehicle number place allegedly entering and leaving the car park at specific times, it is vital that ECP produces the evidence requested in the previous paragraph.


5. The Signs Fail to Transparently Warn Drivers of what the ANPR Data will be used for
The signs fail to transparently warn drivers of what the ANPR data will be used for which breaches the BPA Code of Practice and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 due to inherent failure to indicate the 'commercial intent' of the cameras.

Paragraph 21.1 of the BPA Code of Practice advises operators that they may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as they do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. The Code of Practice requires that car park signs must tell drivers that the operator is using this technology and what it will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.

Euro Car Parks’ signs do not comply with these requirements because this car park signage failed to accurately explain what the ANPR data would be used for, which is a 'failure to identify its commercial intent', contrary to the BPA CoP and Consumer law.

There is no information indicates that these camera images would be used in order to issue Parking Charge Notices. There is absolutely no suggestion in the sentence above that the cameras are in any way related to Parking Charge Notices.

I therefore request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel this PCN.


(i am intending to attach the scan of my ticket)

Coupon-mad

Change #4 to the usual point about no landowner authority, instead.

Your grace periods point needs to be more like this:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75812666#Comment_75812666

Splitting the 'arrival time' section from the 'leaving time' section and pointing out that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the actions at the start to have taken just ninety seconds, which proves the PDT machine time (the system that produces the ticket the driver relies upon for expiry time) is not in synch with the ANPR. Can't be, as 90 seconds is impossible (explain why).

Ta_sha

Hi Everyone, thank you very much for your valuable comments and advice!

My appeal was successful:)

In POPLA's reply I received they say: "Euro Car Parks - EW have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge"

So happy I am! In particular when I am absolutely sure it was not fair, I always pay for parking and being late for a few minutes shouldn't give them right to charge 60 quid..

MistyZ

Great to hear Ta_sha, well done!

I wonder why they didn't contest. Presumably grace periods.

Also wonder how many people don't contest PCNs, even for a very short alleged overstay, and simply feed the beast. How easy it is to get £60 for sweet F.A. in scam land.