Negotiation tips - vendor refusing to pay for surveyor's essential repairs

Cakeguts

Yes don't spend extra to get a house near to an outstanding school. As others have said schools can go from outstanding to special measures in a really short time. If this happens you would lose all the extra that you paid for the house if you wanted to sell it.



You can get a nice 3 bed house not far from that one for less. There is a better market for 3 bed houses than 2 beds with bodged loft rooms. So when you come to sell there will be more people interested in a 3 bed.



You can't tell what will happen to any school in any area in 6 years.

Section106

ypapandr wrote: »

I agree with what you just said 100 per cent and you are right re 650 k. I don't need the loft now (might do in the future) and don't overly care about the stairs. I don't even care about 3 k to do the chimney. BUT I do care about the risk of not having a structurally sound ground floor and I cannot see anyway I can get her to agree to have the council come over, knock some part of the wall down and check the wall (I wouldn't want that either).

Personally I'd walk away if that scale of changes on the ground floor has been done without building control signoff. You would want to know that structural calculations have been carried out and appropriate structural additions made to carry the upper storey loadings, and importantly to provide lateral stability. The property is end of terrace, so the gable end wall needs lateral support. From the photos I can't see what (other than possibly the chimney) is doing that. Your surveyor would have a better idea.

The property details also say there is off-street parking. Where is this? The front garden is paved and pictures show a car parked there, but in the latest streetview images there is no dropped kerb. The space appears to be accessed from the neighbours dropped kerb thanks to a boundary wall being partly demolished. The council could stop you using that space at any time, and there is no time limit on enforcement, unlike planning and building control issues.

Does the survey say anything about the roof above the bay window at the front of the house? On all the properties in the terrace the bay roof is poorly detailed, but on this property the re-roofing appears to have removed what little overhang there was. If you look on streetview at the left-hand side of the bay where the wall meets the roof tiles you will see an area of concrete(?) which looks very wrong.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by not overly caring about the stairs. But the regulations in relations to stairs are very important from a safety point of view and anybody buying a house should attach great weight to the surveyor's comments about issues with stairs. It literally can mean the difference between life and death.

In addition to the other comments made about the stairs, the spindles around the stairs in the loft room don't look like they would meet the 100mm sphere test. If so, that means a child could put their head between the spindles and get it stuck, potentially with fatal results. It is small things like that which are incredibly important. Hopefully your surveyor has identified that problem (if it is one) and rectifying it is included in the estimate for essential repairs.

Cakeguts

Interestingly the details for the property mention offstreet parking but I can't see what you could actually park on there that you could drive on sideways even if there was dropped kerb. Even a bicycle might hang over the pavement if parked length ways. That front garden is really short.


I don't think even if they have managed to get a dropped kerb since street view that you could get any sort of car on there. If they haven't got a dropped kerb they won't get one now because the rules have changed and that garden is too short.

Alan2020

I think everyone is digressing from the main point. If OP wants a price reduction they should be willing to walk away. So say in your mind if the house is worth say £515k at most, offer £500k and say if within 48hours if no response you are pulling out. If they say £540, then offer £515 as final offer and give 24 hours, then pull out and start on another property.

Many people don’t live in London and don’t realise how bad it is for buyers like the OP. There is a lot of gang stuff in London and very hard when you have kids. Traffic, costs etc means living next to outstanding school is important. £100k premium to £150k is typical.

Then people comments on style, guess what it’s london. If you watch popular house design programmes on TV you may notice architects removing plasterboard on ceilings and leaving exposed wooden joists and upper timber floor. Lining houses with plywood and OSB. What do you think happens when there is a fire, all fire and smoke sealing of the ceiling is compromised. Oh plasterboard doesn’t catch fire, but plywood, osb does. Yet people pay £300k plus for these improvements lol.

For those saying get an older property, most will be filled to the brim with asbestos and will cost over £10k to remove and another £10k to make good. Meanwhile OP will have to rent at £1800pcm

Ultimately the area matters, where we live is a relatively nice area, 2miles further a bad area, houses are £150k cheaper, however when walking in our area teenagers will step off the pavement so you can continue pushing your pram, whilst in the other town 13year old boys tried to karate kick my pregnant wife on her stomach. A colleague of mine had her coffee cup full of coffee kicked into her face at 9am as she stepped out of a coffee shop in the same town.
So to the people saying cheaper it’s not just house size but location which here can be 250meters away.

need_an_answer

Alan2020 wrote: »

I think everyone is digressing from the main point. If OP wants a price reduction they should be willing to walk away. So say in your mind if the house is worth say £515k at most, offer £500k and say if within 48hours if no response you are pulling out. If they say £540, then offer £515 as final offer and give 24 hours, then pull out and start on another property.

Many people don’t live in London and don’t realise how bad it is for buyers like the OP. There is a lot of gang stuff in London and very hard when you have kids. Traffic, costs etc means living next to outstanding school is important. £100k premium to £150k is typical.

Then people comments on style, guess what it’s london. If you watch popular house design programmes on TV you may notice architects removing plasterboard on ceilings and leaving exposed wooden joists and upper timber floor. Lining houses with plywood and OSB. What do you think happens when there is a fire, all fire and smoke sealing of the ceiling is compromised. Oh plasterboard doesn’t catch fire, but plywood, osb does. Yet people pay £300k plus for these improvements lol.

For those saying get an older property, most will be filled to the brim with asbestos and will cost over £10k to remove and another £10k to make good. Meanwhile OP will have to rent at £1800pcm

Ultimately the area matters, where we live is a relatively nice area, 2miles further a bad area, houses are £150k cheaper, however when walking in our area teenagers will step off the pavement so you can continue pushing your pram, whilst in the other town 13year old boys tried to karate kick my pregnant wife on her stomach. A colleague of mine had her coffee cup full of coffee kicked into her face at 9am as she stepped out of a coffee shop in the same town.
So to the people saying cheaper it’s not just house size but location which here can be 250meters away.

I'm not sure if you've missed the point though.
The way I've read the op's posts is that he and his wife absolutely love the house,put in an offer which was accepted and its only now that the survey has come back that there are highlighted problems.They are beyond the point of just offering on the house,so its not always an easy decision to walk away with 24 or 48 hours notice to the vendor.

I perhaps think I may be in the minority who actually think that yes had the house been renovated to the correct standards and with the correct building regulations in place to support the structural changes,the house would have been worth what the OP offered....but its not simply because there have been issues highlighted by the surveyor.

I asked the question over why needing to be in an outstanding school area simply because the OP has chosen a house that on the face of it is not child friendly,which I would put as being a high importance if he was a parent and factored that in before looking at the quality of local schools.

I'm aware that £500k doesnt buy you the same type of house that you may get in other parts of the country and I've been respectful with my comments on house pricing in the area ….its clear for even me to see as a London outsider that in order to get the type of house the OP probably wants in the area he wants he will need to spend another £50k.

Essentially what he is mid purchase through is a house where it could cost him and his wife thousands to put right the wrongs that have been put in.

I just wonder if his £x k might be better invested in another less problematic property within his search area.


Of course he could still buy the property and live there very happily for the next few years without never needing the use of the loft room,rather awkward and potentially dangerous stairs,even no sprinkler system or indeed any other remedies,but that doesn't take the issue away when or if he comes to sell the property at a later stage.


A property that has been through several estate agents over the past 2 years and not sold has a problem,and I suspect the vendor knows full well about the issues their property has.

The OP has the choice to walk away...I would in their position,however I clearly don't "love" the property in the same way that they do.Hes not asking for a price reduction based on offering the wrong amount initially,hes asking for a price reduction because the house has issues that are long term and potentially costly to put right.

The vendor on the other hand has marketed the property for the last 2 years at up to 15-20% more than the offer she has now accepted....she's unlikely to want to drop any lower as her perception will be its already nearly £100k less than when first advertised.


Fact is the problems structurally still remain.

ypapandr

need_an_answer wrote: »

I'm not sure if you've missed the point though.
The way I've read the op's posts is that he and his wife absolutely love the house,put in an offer which was accepted and its only now that the survey has come back that there are highlighted problems.They are beyond the point of just offering on the house,so its not always an easy decision to walk away with 24 or 48 hours notice to the vendor.

I perhaps think I may be in the minority who actually think that yes had the house been renovated to the correct standards and with the correct building regulations in place to support the structural changes,the house would have been worth what the OP offered....but its not simply because there have been issues highlighted by the surveyor.

I asked the question over why needing to be in an outstanding school area simply because the OP has chosen a house that on the face of it is not child friendly,which I would put as being a high importance if he was a parent and factored that in before looking at the quality of local schools.

I'm aware that £500k doesnt buy you the same type of house that you may get in other parts of the country and I've been respectful with my comments on house pricing in the area ….its clear for even me to see as a London outsider that in order to get the type of house the OP probably wants in the area he wants he will need to spend another £50k.

Essentially what he is mid purchase through is a house where it could cost him and his wife thousands to put right the wrongs that have been put in.

I just wonder if his £x k might be better invested in another less problematic property within his search area.


Of course he could still buy the property and live there very happily for the next few years without never needing the use of the loft room,rather awkward and potentially dangerous stairs,even no sprinkler system or indeed any other remedies,but that doesn't take the issue away when or if he comes to sell the property at a later stage.


A property that has been through several estate agents over the past 2 years and not sold has a problem,and I suspect the vendor knows full well about the issues their property has.

The OP has the choice to walk away...I would in their position,however I clearly don't "love" the property in the same way that they do.Hes not asking for a price reduction based on offering the wrong amount initially,hes asking for a price reduction because the house has issues that are long term and potentially costly to put right.

The vendor on the other hand has marketed the property for the last 2 years at up to 15-20% more than the offer she has now accepted....she's unlikely to want to drop any lower as her perception will be its already nearly £100k less than when first advertised.


Fact is the problems structurally still remain.

I think the solution is to offer as an ultimatum to put 100,000 GBP in escrow for all building regulation work (ALL - including ground floor, loft, stairs, glazed window etc), an indemnity is not good enough as she can leave the country and serving notice or just getting her to pay will be a nightmare. She will either accept the escrow solution or, more likely, refuse. Do you reckon 100 k will be sufficient for all the work?

maisie_cat

ypapandr wrote: »

The valuation is 5 k less, the repairs are 5,500. The brickwork, pointing and flashings for the chimney are in poor order (2,500). The mono pitched on the back is in poor order and some tiles need to be replaced (300), airbricks need to be installed for the ground floor (no ventilation - 500). This together are about 3 grand. On top, there is a glass partition which is not compliant and will need to be either replaced or sprinklers will need to be installed. He assessed the cost for this at 2,000.

Chimney pointing is not £2.5k, we had ours repointed last year for £300 (add £1000 if scaffolding required), replacing tiles is an ongoing thing and £200 will get the odd chipped or broken ones replaced same scaffolding for both jobs if required. The air vents presumably did not exist so it's an add on. Was the glass partition compliant when it was installed? Many things in houses are not compliant now, but were when installed
None of these suggest that the vendors bodged anything, but people do not necessarily notice things unless they leak. Think about it, if you couldn't see that the pointing needed doing from the ground perhaps the vendors couldn't either. Having said that, if the buyer of my £590k house wanted to negotiate over £10k I'd probably be up for it.

Cakeguts

Alan2020 wrote: »

I think everyone is digressing from the main point. If OP wants a price reduction they should be willing to walk away. So say in your mind if the house is worth say £515k at most, offer £500k and say if within 48hours if no response you are pulling out. If they say £540, then offer £515 as final offer and give 24 hours, then pull out and start on another property.

Many people don’t live in London and don’t realise how bad it is for buyers like the OP. There is a lot of gang stuff in London and very hard when you have kids. Traffic, costs etc means living next to outstanding school is important. £100k premium to £150k is typical.

Then people comments on style, guess what it’s london. If you watch popular house design programmes on TV you may notice architects removing plasterboard on ceilings and leaving exposed wooden joists and upper timber floor. Lining houses with plywood and OSB. What do you think happens when there is a fire, all fire and smoke sealing of the ceiling is compromised. Oh plasterboard doesn’t catch fire, but plywood, osb does. Yet people pay £300k plus for these improvements lol.

For those saying get an older property, most will be filled to the brim with asbestos and will cost over £10k to remove and another £10k to make good. Meanwhile OP will have to rent at £1800pcm

Ultimately the area matters, where we live is a relatively nice area, 2miles further a bad area, houses are £150k cheaper, however when walking in our area teenagers will step off the pavement so you can continue pushing your pram, whilst in the other town 13year old boys tried to karate kick my pregnant wife on her stomach. A colleague of mine had her coffee cup full of coffee kicked into her face at 9am as she stepped out of a coffee shop in the same town.
So to the people saying cheaper it’s not just house size but location which here can be 250meters away.

That particular area is surrounded by nice areas or as nice and safe as you can get anywhere in London. The only reason why this house is more expensive is because of a deluded vendor who has wrecked it by doing "interior design" and the fact that at the moment it is near to an outstanding state school.



The state school situation could change next year and then then they will be left with a house needing a lot of money spent on it in an area that is not so sought after.

bouicca21

Ultimately the area matters, where we live is a relatively nice area, 2miles further a bad area, houses are £150k cheaper, however when walking in our area teenagers will step off the pavement so you can continue pushing your pram, whilst in the other town 13year old boys tried to karate kick my pregnant wife on her stomach. A colleague of mine had her coffee cup full of coffee kicked into her face at 9am as she stepped out of a coffee shop in the same town.
So to the people saying cheaper it’s not just house size but location which here can be 250meters away.

Good grief, I wonder just where these mean streets are? I lived in inner London for 40 plus years and even now am within a mile of a multi cultural inner London borough. Never had any trouble, until I got mugged one evening in an affluent middle class houses-at-a-premium area.

need_an_answer

ypapandr wrote: »

I think the solution is to offer as an ultimatum to put 100,000 GBP in escrow for all building regulation work (ALL - including ground floor, loft, stairs, glazed window etc), an indemnity is not good enough as she can leave the country and serving notice or just getting her to pay will be a nightmare. She will either accept the escrow solution or, more likely, refuse. Do you reckon 100 k will be sufficient for all the work?

To be honest you really need to run this one past the vendor.
I've always found that a retention held by the solicitors has been sufficient...I only had to use that method once and was for a much smaller amount than you are proposing(6k for communal works on a leasehold apartment)

Asking her to potentially drop her price by £100k seems a huge ask and one that you shouldn't be floating past her until you have very firm knowledge of what its going to cost to put right.


Given that I suspect she has been in this position before during the sale of her property with other potential purchasers I think her answer will be to pull away from the sale,leave it a few months and remarket the property with another agent...that is possibly the pattern that she has followed for the last 2 years!