Would You Complain - NHS

Termit

Hi, my friends mum recently died in hospital. During visits there he found they had her on the wrong levels of oxygen. A few times nearly gave her medication twice if he hadn't pointed out she had already had it. She had COPD.
During her last week when he wasn't present the consultant apparently asked her did she want to wear her mask, her carbon dioxide levels were high, she used to not want to wear her mask just for a break from it or for a drink, the doctors told my friend that she had told them she didn't want it and they said they were going to respect her wishes not to have that. He asked his mum when she briefly came around and she said she did want the mask on, but by then as she was in and out of consciousness the only nurse witness said they wouldn't have any of it because she wasn't with it enough to consent. He says he thinks they didn't explain it to her what the outcome would be if she didn't have the mask, and says that he should have been told of this as her next of kin and always there daily. With that and the other incidents that went on he is agonizing over whether to make a formal complain either via the NHS or via no win no fee lawyers. He is unsure of what to do but needs to make a decision asap.

MovingForwards

Complain to the hospital.
Complain to the GMC and NMC about the Drs and nurses, providing your friend knows their names.

See what happens with the complaints. The NHS do have a budget for compensation claims.

A no win no fee lawyer can be considered when things have calmed down as no amount of money will bring his/her mom back.

This is the same advice I have to my friend recently who is also going through the same thing.

keithdc

Termit wrote: »

Hi, my friends mum recently died in hospital. During visits there he found they had her on the wrong levels of oxygen. A few times nearly gave her medication twice if he hadn't pointed out she had already had it. She had COPD.
During her last week when he wasn't present the consultant apparently asked her did she want to wear her mask, her carbon dioxide levels were high, she used to not want to wear her mask just for a break from it or for a drink, the doctors told my friend that she had told them she didn't want it and they said they were going to respect her wishes not to have that. He asked his mum when she briefly came around and she said she did want the mask on, but by then as she was in and out of consciousness the only nurse witness said they wouldn't have any of it because she wasn't with it enough to consent. He says he thinks they didn't explain it to her what the outcome would be if she didn't have the mask, and says that he should have been told of this as her next of kin and always there daily. With that and the other incidents that went on he is agonizing over whether to make a formal complain either via the NHS or via no win no fee lawyers. He is unsure of what to do but needs to make a decision asap.

What do you mean by the wrong levels of oxygen?

It sounds like your friend's mum was dying and focus shifted to ensuring her comfort.
A 'next of kin' has no absolute right to know any information.

Why not make an appointment with the consultant/ ward manager to discuss the care received?

parking_question_chap

By the sounds of it they were unlikely to survive for long and their sons immediate thought is complaining for financial gain rather than for the benefit of improving the service provided for those that might be treated at the hospital in future, or just a simple acknowledgement that the NHS failed to meet expectations and an apology and change to protocols.

Fine, if somebody goes in for an operation and they accidently cut an arm off them yes compensation is certainly owed but im not sure if its really the case here.

Pollycat

Termit wrote: »

Hi, my friends mum recently died in hospital. During visits there he found they had her on the wrong levels of oxygen. A few times nearly gave her medication twice if he hadn't pointed out she had already had it. She had COPD.
During her last week when he wasn't present the consultant apparently asked her did she want to wear her mask, her carbon dioxide levels were high, she used to not want to wear her mask just for a break from it or for a drink, the doctors told my friend that she had told them she didn't want it and they said they were going to respect her wishes not to have that. He asked his mum when she briefly came around and she said she did want the mask on, but by then as she was in and out of consciousness the only nurse witness said they wouldn't have any of it because she wasn't with it enough to consent. He says he thinks they didn't explain it to her what the outcome would be if she didn't have the mask, and says that he should have been told of this as her next of kin and always there daily. With that and the other incidents that went on he is agonizing over whether to make a formal complain either via the NHS or via no win no fee lawyers. He is unsure of what to do but needs to make a decision asap.

I'm not sure that someone who 'briefly came round' and is asked a question but then goes 'in and out of consciousness' could be relied on to know exactly what she was saying. I have no medical knowledge, just my opinion.

Also - how did your friend know she was on the wrong levels of oxygen?

GlasweJen

If the mother kept removing the mask "for a break" then she would have been undoing a lot of the work that the oxygen was doing and that was probably why the levels were being moved around.

If the doctors then decided that things were too far gone and the treatment had become pointless and should be withdrawn then the only person that needed discussed with was the patient and her welfare power of attorney. As the son didn't have POA he didn't get to be part of those chats and him desperately trying to get the nurses to restart treatment when end of life care had been agreed upon is pointless.

He can complain to the GMC and NMC about individual doctors and nurses but as he wasn't part of the discussions while mum was lucid then he might find out that mum signed consent forms as she'd had enough of being stuck on oxygen and wanted to die with a bit of dignity. Meanwhile some hard working doctors and nurses are hauled over the coals, possibly suspended while investigations are carried out.

Hasbeen

Termit wrote: »

Hi, my friends mum recently died in hospital. During visits there he found they had her on the wrong levels of oxygen. A few times nearly gave her medication twice if he hadn't pointed out she had already had it. She had COPD.
During her last week when he wasn't present the consultant apparently asked her did she want to wear her mask, her carbon dioxide levels were high, she used to not want to wear her mask just for a break from it or for a drink, the doctors told my friend that she had told them she didn't want it and they said they were going to respect her wishes not to have that. He asked his mum when she briefly came around and she said she did want the mask on, but by then as she was in and out of consciousness the only nurse witness said they wouldn't have any of it because she wasn't with it enough to consent. He says he thinks they didn't explain it to her what the outcome would be if she didn't have the mask, and says that he should have been told of this as her next of kin and always there daily. With that and the other incidents that went on he is agonizing over whether to make a formal complain either via the NHS or via no win no fee lawyers. He is unsure of what to do but needs to make a decision asap.

Your friend, the son of the mother who died, is now looking for compo?

You need to pick your friends better!:(

Pollycat

MovingForwards wrote: »

Complain to the hospital.
Complain to the GMC and NMC about the Drs and nurses, providing your friend knows their names.

See what happens with the complaints. The NHS do have a budget for compensation claims.

A no win no fee lawyer can be considered when things have calmed down as no amount of money will bring his/her mom back.

This is the same advice I have to my friend recently who is also going through the same thing.

Given what the OP has said do you really think his/her friend has cause for complaint?

Are the circumstances really the 'same thing' as your friend experienced?

elsien

GlasweJen wrote: »

If the mother kept removing the mask "for a break" then she would have been undoing a lot of the work that the oxygen was doing and that was probably why the levels were being moved around.

If the doctors then decided that things were too far gone and the treatment had become pointless and should be withdrawn then the only person that needed discussed with was the patient and her welfare power of attorney. As the son didn't have POA he didn't get to be part of those chats and him desperately trying to get the nurses to restart treatment when end of life care had been agreed upon is pointless.

He can complain to the GMC and NMC about individual doctors and nurses but as he wasn't part of the discussions while mum was lucid then he might find out that mum signed consent forms as she'd had enough of being stuck on oxygen and wanted to die with a bit of dignity. Meanwhile some hard working doctors and nurses are hauled over the coals, possibly suspended while investigations are carried out.

Not entirely accurate. If mum lacked capacity by that point then family should have been consulted, whether there was power of attorney or not. The consultant/team in charge of her care would still be the ultimate decision maker, rather than family. Howeve her previous wishes and preferences would have played a part in the final decision, and you cannot force a medical decision where it is futile/against the patients best interests.

I would suggest that your friend may be reacting more strongly because of his grief and needing to have something to focus his anger towards.

A decision does not need to be made quickly - I believe you have 12 months to make an NHS complaint so I would suggest he give himself more time to consider his options.

And separate out the issues - over medications is a serious complaint but is there any proof as to what happened - did he raise it with the ward manager at the time?
With regards to the end of life care - it does sound as if he wanted more active treatment when mum was palliative. That's a judgement call but if she was repeatedly taking the mask off, then it's about making her last hours comfortable. Not trying to prolong what can't be prolonged.

sheramber

Would the outcome have been different if she had the mask on or would it have merely prolonged the inevitable.

Friday1989

The main question for me is would the result have been different if she kept the mask on and did she suffer because it was not on? If not, then I don't see the purpose of making a claim for compensation. What exactly is your friend wanting compensation for?

My grandma recently died of COPD and it was similar in that she kept taking the mask off and it was decided to allow this as even with the mask her chance of leaving hospital was zero. I would imagine the decision was made that the mask was uncomfortable and only prolonging the time to her death. She will have had so little control over her last days, respecting her decision (made when not borderline unconscious) is hugely important to a 'good death' and sense of autonomy at the end of her life.

As for the medication near misses with double dosing, had your friend seen what she had been written up for? It's quite likely her medication would have changed as she approached her finals days and hours because comfort is more important that the potential longer term impact of higher doses, for obvious reasons...

As no ill came from the near misses I can't see what your friend expects to get compensation for. If might, however, be worth calling the council to raise a safeguarding concern. There is actually a point in this because finding out how these near misses happened could potentially stop another patient being given multiple doses of medication.

My family had a similar incident with my grandad. He was not given the appropriate treatment resulting in a deterioration in his health that meant he went from living independently to needing a nursing home. We considered making a claim for compensation on his behalf but decided that as he already had a declining condition (dementia) and the decline would have naturally occurred, albeit it not as quickly, it wasn't worth it.

There was, however, a safeguarding enquiry and serious incident review. This has led to all nurses on that ward having extra training on his condition and the treatment of it, and now no one with an unstable variant of his (very common) condition will be transferred to that hospital as they don't have a specialist team there.

What does your friend want to achieve from the claim? It may be a safeguarding concern is the better route (and should be done even if he chooses to make a claim for compensation).