PCN from PCM (UK) Ltd in Greenhithe

JKK

Hello all

First time posting here and let me begin by thanking you all for the amazing work you are doing by helping others. Apologies for the long post as well.
I have read the newbies thread, but I am still confused about the steps must be taken from now on.

So here are the details and some questions:
A company van is being used that the company I work for has hired from a hire company. In the documentation I’ve been given for the van, my company is stated as the hirer and there is no mention of other names.
- Who is the Registered Keeper in this case and who must challenge the charge?
- I am aware of the draft that I can send but as I understand it can be used in the cases that a Notice to Keeper has been posted to his address. (so maybe not applicable in this case?)
- When do I challenge this PCN? PCM Ltd is a member of IPC. Do I wait or must I do it before the 21 day mark?
- Do I have to inform both companies about the action I am about to take?
- After reading my argument below, do you think there is enough evidence to cancel the charge?

On 14/04/19 a PCN from “Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd” or PCM, found on the windscreen by the driver for “Parked outside of a marked bay / on restricted roadway / landscaped / paved areas or causing an obstruction or inconvenience to others” at the Ingress Park Development, Greenhithe, Kent.
A) In my opinion none of the above are true. In the attached files (pictures 1-7), it can be clearly seen that:
-As per “Amendment No39 of Consolidation Order 2019 from Dartford County Council which states: Tiltman Avenue - (1) DYL On the northern side from the junction with Ingress Park Avenue for a distance of 210 metres in an easterly then southerly direction. (2) On the southern side from the junction with Ingress Park Avenue for a distance of 250 metres in an easterly then southerly direction.”, the area where the van is parked is part of the public junction of Tiltman Avenue and Ingress Park Avenue, am I right? There are no yellow lines.
-Landscaped? (Meaning?)
-No paved areas
-There is no obstruction or inconvenience to others.

The PCN also states that: “This vehicle is parked in a manner which attracts a Parking Charge as brought to the driver’s attention by the signage throughout the site”
-Although the site does have signs in all private roads, there are no signs in all public roads. No sign is to be found anywhere on the side of the road the van was parked on. So, no arguments can be made for agreeing in a contract with PCM. (there is a small sign on the other side of the road between some bushes and a bin, does this have an effect?)


Thank you all in advance for your time and help, much appreciated!

Quentin

Read up in the FAQ on the futility of appeals to IPC companies!

The day to day keeper can send the initial appeal as suggested in the FAQ, then you ignore everything except a lbcca or court correspondence

If it comes to that then come back at the time for advice on how to deal with Court claims

They have 6 years to start legal proceedings against you

JKK

So it's either pay them or take a risk for court?

Umkomaas

JKK wrote: »

So it's either pay them or take a risk for court?

That’s about it. But what worries you about the ‘risk for court’?

Are you saying that the vehicle was parked (and ticketed) on the public highway? If so you need to get confirmation that the exact parking spot was on a road adopted and maintained by the council and subject to Traffic Regulation Orders (TRO).

Whatever the score above, you need to get this PCN hooked in your direction and away from the lease company, otherwise the NtK will go to them, they might well pay it, charge your company the £100 as well as a tasty admin fee on top.

Coupon-mad

JKK wrote: »

So it's either pay them or take a risk for court?

No-one here pays PCM and pretty much anyone can beat them in court!

The_Deep

They are trying to scam you so get your MP on side.

They are vert familiar with these scams and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

JKK

Thank you guys for your replies. I am back with an update. Sent my initial dispute email to PCM, some days before and below is the context from it:

{Dear all
I am writing to you as the day to day keeper of the mentioned van in the above PCN, to dispute your 'parking charge'. This van is a hired company van.
I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.
There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an exact explanation of the allegation and all of your evidence handed to me via email. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date and of the area the sign is located.
In order to resolve the dispute I attach photographs and my reasons for challenging this PCN:
None of the reasons stated at the PCN are true. In the attached files (pictures 1-7), it can be clearly seen that:
--As per “Amendment No39 of Consolidation Order 2019 from Dartford County Council which states: Tiltman Avenue - (1) DYL On the northern side from the junction with Ingress Park Avenue for a distance of 210 metres in an easterly then southerly direction. (2) On the southern side from the junction with Ingress Park Avenue for a distance of 250 metres in an easterly then southerly direction.”, the area where the van is parked is part of the public junction of Tiltman Avenue and Ingress Park Avenue. There are no yellow lines. So no need of parking in marked bay as not being on a Private road.
--The road is not a landscaped area.
--The road the van was parked is not a paved area.
--There is no obstruction or inconvenience to others.
The PCN also states that: “This vehicle is parked in a manner which attracts a Parking Charge as brought to the driver’s attention by the signage throughout the site”
--Although the site does have signs in all private roads its does so in both sides of the road and after every few meters. You can clearly see in pictures 2-7 that no sign is to be found anywhere on the side of the road the van was parked on. So, no arguments can be made for agreeing in a contract with PCM.
--There is a small sign on the other side of the road almost hidden by bushes and a salt bin but driver can't assume that the sign corresponds to the other side of the road as well. Furthermore, as per "The Local Authorities' (Procedure) (England and Wales) Traffic Orders Regulations 1996:
Traffic signs 18.
—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure
— (a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road; " the above criterion has not been satisfied.
Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.
Therefor I expect this PCN to be cancelled and no further pursue of this to be made.}

Almost a week after that, I received by post the below reply from them:

{Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding the above PCN.
Unfortunately, at this stage, we are unable to process your appeal.
You have refused to name the driver at the time of the contravention, as is your right; but without evidence the you are the registered keeper of the vehicle, we are unable to determine your liability for this charge.
If endeed, you are the registered keeper, we will be hapy to process your representation after DVLA details have been ought and notice to Keeper has been issued.
Alternatively, the driver ay make an appeal ith a statement of admission and confirmation that they were the driver at the time.
If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may procced with Court action against you. }

My next steps here? Do I let the driver do the apeal? Should I respose in any way? Or do I inform my company as the name on the hire lease to apeal?

I am confused. Thank guys!

Coupon-mad

Get written authority from the registered keeper (a third party lease firm, or is it the company you work for?) stating that:

They are the registered keepers of this vehicle and wish to transfer liability under the POFA 2012 to the hirer/lessee who is:

Your name
Your postal address

...and they do not expect to hear from PCM again and the hirer/lessee is the person who PCM need to deal with, now that they have transferred liability in good time.

They will have to attach:

- proof that they are the rk of this vehicle (a copy of the V5C) and

- a copy of the hire or lease agreement that confirms you as the lessee.

THEY MUST NOT STATE THAT YOU WERE THE DRIVER. THEY WERE NOT THERE!

A decent version of that sort of letter from a Fleet Manager is already written by Edna Basher in the company/hire/lease car section near the bottom of the NEWBIES thread's first post all about appeals - albeit it doesn't include the bit I said above, naming you and including the evidence they MUST provide to ensure the company has transferred liability and are out of the loop.

This is VITAL so no idiot in the Fleet Dept panics, pays it then charges you.