A little lost - weight training & nutrition.

JustAnotherSaver

Fire_Fox wrote: »

:eek: Your leg routine is totally inappropriate for someone with an (undiagnosed?) knee problem.

And you do not mention your glutes at all.

My knee problem has been dealt with some 7-8 years ago. I'm basically knackered for life as far as my knee goes.
I've also been paying to see a physio who has given me a routine to do on the machines. He actually attends the same gym so knows the machines well (the machines are different - i'll link them later). He ruled out the leg extension which tied in with the advice the YouTube channels i mentioned earlier gave.


As for the gluts, the leg press machine i use actually highlights the glutes as the primary muscle being worked with the rest of the leg being secondary.




Machine: http://x-force.se/index.php/products/legpress
Well that's interesting. The body map on the machine itself highlighted glutes as primary, which confused me as i didn't feel it there at all, even when i tried to focus on that area as i was doing it. The link highlights exactly where i feel it.


Have a read on that website if you wish. They're a bit different to your typical gym machines.

JustAnotherSaver

parking_question_chap wrote: »

Taking arms as just one example. Potentially even people with arms of the same length could have their elbows in slightly different positions due to different lengths of humerus compared with raduis and ulna. These people will have different natural ranges of motion for pressing movements but a machine will force them to use the only range of motion it permits. Performing a movement in a fixed plane that doesnt exactly suit your body, over time, will cause problems.

This actually makes a lot of sense now you mention it.


As mentioned i can't use the leg extension machine because of my knee issue. Another that i can't really use because of my limitations is the bicep curl machine. I've tried many different settings and i can't do it because when i was younger i had a portion of my elbow removed. The end result was that i can't straighten one arm fully. You'd never notice it by looking at me, i'd have to show you the difference (so it's not like one is permanently 90 degrees) but when on this machine due to the mechanics of it it feels like it's going to snap that arm back (so i do bicep curl using bands/tubes instead).

Next time you are in the gym just subtly observe people doing dumbell bench or shoulder press for example. Same exercise many different slight variations on technique and positioning. Many times purely as a result of where there body is most comfortable.

I actually watch others a lot. When you see online for 'correct form' and then you go to a gym you see that barely anyone uses 'correct form'. Many are the wing it & swing it crew. Bicep curl for example - people doing all sorts of swinging at the hips & using their backs to help. For rows i see people leaning right back. Leg extension is a bad one for people swinging.

All this before we even consider that some machines are badly designed before the user even gets near them. Pec dec? Overhead press machine with a starting position directly to the side of your body? Welcome to a whole world of rotator cuff and shoulder impingement problems.

The pec machine is the one where i feel it in my chest the most (& therefore enjoy it). Though i don't have the starting position really far back as i believe like you say it puts too much strain on your shoulder area. My starting position is basically 0-180 degrees.









To try and take it back to my original question though - what can you expect (results-wise) if your eating isn't 'perfect'. Let's say you hit your protein per bodyweight but you're not getting your calories in for example.


So if you eat at a caloric deficit & you're hitting the cardio hard (basically me last year) - you lose weight. No problem.
If you eat at a caloric surplus & hit everything perfectly & lift weights hard working each muscle group you'll gain muscle mass. No problem.


But what if you hit each muscle group hard as far as working out goes and while you are getting in enough protein you're just not getting the calories in, so as far as calories go you're at maintenance (or just over/under some days - inconsistent). What would you expect to see? Absolutely nothing at all? Would you be building strength? Surely it can't be literally the same as though you weren't lifting at all (no progress)?

parking_question_chap

I think you are overcomplicating things mate. Go in there lift and try and eat as well as you can. When you plateau after a year or so you can start to look at things in more detail.

To answer your question. Put simply the better your routine, the harder you train and the better you eat the better your physique you be. No need to try and quanitify the results difference between an exceptional and an average nutrition plan.

JustAnotherSaver

parking_question_chap wrote: »

I think you are overcomplicating things mate. Go in there lift and try and eat as well as you can. When you plateau after a year or so you can start to look at things in more detail.

To answer your question. Put simply the better your routine, the harder you train and the better you eat the better your physique you be. No need to try and quanitify the results difference between an exceptional and an average nutrition plan.

If only i got £1.00 for every time i got told that ... in anything :rotfl:


The whole me wondering thing just stems from me feeling like i'm getting nowhere (no progress) and then wondering if this is just in my head or whether i am making progress ... just slowly. I know putting muscle mass on is a slow process but i don't know how slow.

For all i know, with the workout routine i'm doing and the way my nutrition is, i could be making progress, slow progress but progress all the same.

OR, i may simply not be doing enough, be it workout (i know soreness doesn't = adequate workout but i'm pretty bloody sore after every workout) or nutrition to put on any size at all and i could very well be wasting my time ... that's the thing, i don't know. I've no history to gauge off as this is the first time i've given it a proper go.


Incidentally, feeling so deflated and like i'm going nowhere has had me take the past week out of the gym for the first time in a year & a half. Not good i know.

parking_question_chap

How long have you been training for?
Are your lifts going up?

sharp82

Look into 5x5 Strong lifts. Its all you really need

Pip_Boy_111

I echo the over complicating things comment.

Are you training to compete in a show? Or are you training to feel better, stronger, be healthy and build some muscle?

Unless you are strong, have been training for years and have your nutrition on point, I would say faffing around with isolation lifts is a bit like trying to run before you can walk.

Personally I would stick to the compound lifts (bench press, overhead press, deadlift, squat) with a few supplemental lifts (rows, dumbbell press, rdl etc.) Focus on heavy (relative) with good form. The stronglifts call is a good one. Also check out starting strength, 5/3/1, and (if appearance is the main concern) Mike Matthew's Bigger,Leaner,Stronger. I have given them all a go over the years and can recommend them. The philosophy of each is the same (train heavy for strength), with slight variations of assistance work and "cardio" recommendations. Take the diet advice of Rippetoe with a pinch of salt (unless you're looking to get into Powe lifting with associated power belly:rotfl:).

Correct nutrition goes without saying.

As for the knee. Unless it's a chronic condition squats should be included. For reference i had a MAJOR knee 're construction after an injury (think only attached by the skin). I took it VERY cautiously and built back up using full squats (from BW to 210kg in 4 years). Extensions really stress the patella tendon so avoid.

You're lifting. This in itself means you're off to a good start. Lift heavy, eat right and remember, rest is as important to training as lifting. Rest is when the growth happens. Don't try and do 5 days a week. 3-4 should be plenty. Even 2 can work if the stimulus (training) is enough of a stressor.

And please, don't get paralysis by analysis. Pick a routine and do it. Avoid the latest "guaranteed abs" articles and log your progress.

(Also don't freak out if you gain a little bit of fat. This is what happens when training to grow and get stronger. Keep it in check and you're good. Ignore if using pharmaceutical help.)

Happy lifting my friend

JustAnotherSaver

parking_question_chap wrote: »

How long have you been training for?

'properly'? Since January. Actually since about November 2018 but for the opening 8-12 weeks i was lifting ridiculously light weights just to get my ligaments/tendons used to the movement & also to focus on the muscle i'm supposed to be working on.
For example, the deltoid press machine that i use, i'm currently on 70kg. I started out at about 20kg for 15 reps just to get used to the movement.


I'd dived right in in the past & ended up injured. My physio advised me to go silly light for my knees and work up over time & i applied that thought process for everything else.

Are your lifts going up?

Yes they are. Not massively but they are. Leg curl for example i'd do 3x10x80kg (as mentioned to you in private, the machines i use apparently add 40% on the negative) and the 3rd set would be quite difficult. I can do that no problem now and have moved on to the next weight - 90kg. I've increased most/all others too.

Pip_Boy_111

Just in response to the maintenance calorie question:

Eating at maintenance levels and lifting should see very slow changes i.e. Get stronger slowly, little to no fat gained or lost (very simplistic explanation). Unless you're happy with where you're at, I'd avoid this route.

Edit: i think you're really overthinking. Hit the compounds hard and heavy. Log progress. Eat right. It really is that simple. Be patient, work hard, and you'll see progress.

JustAnotherSaver

Pip_Boy_111 wrote: »

As for the knee. Unless it's a chronic condition

Just to throw it out there ...


Almost 10 years ago i took a 3ft drop. We've all jumped from higher heights many times over the years i'm quite sure but as i landed my knee just gave out. The surgeon told me my kneecap was goosed. I couldn't put force through my heel without sharp pain.


FFWD a bit & they removed some plica membrane. If i knew then what i knew now i'd have left it.


I've lost feeling to a degree down the outside of my knee. I don't know whether this causes some of the issues i have or not. I mentioned it to the surgeon and he just simply shrugged and said no idea why as i wasn't working there & that was as much as his concern stretched.



I had healing complications. Blood clots & just general healing time - i should've been ok after 6 weeks, i wasn't great after 13. My knee swelled up so bad i thought my skin was going to tear. The pain was unbearable and i'm not ashamed to say i was literally in tears from how painful it was.



FFWD even more and i'd say for the first certainly 2 but maybe 4 years i couldn't be on my feet for very long at all without it hurting. I'm much better than i was now but if we do a lot of walking then my knee is incredibly painful. The only way i can describe it is it's the most intense 'tight' feeling i've ever had - it feels like it's going to explode from the inside out but at the very same time it feels like it's got such pressure on it from the outside that it'll implode too. It just feels so incredibly incredibly tight that the discomfort is ridiculous.



So for now i 'manage' it. I'm very careful what i do. I don't do anything high impact - no running, no jumping. I've stopped the leg extensions (pretty much) - i actually do do them but very light and i only lift up a short amount to put strain on the quads (if you've ever watched Scooby's demo with the egg you'll see). Kneeling hurts it so i avoid that. Just anything that put stress on the knee i will avoid if i can.


I've seen numerous medical professionals since and had various scans and nobody knows why it troubles me as much as it does. The only way they'll see is if they open me up again - but as the last experience was so bad (my other knee was actually a success which is why i had this one done also) i'll only ever go through surgery as a literal last resort now.