Britannia/BW Legal help please

Moneynewbee

Hello all and thank you for your help with my parking issue, I wish I’d seen this forum before I started this process as I’ve made a mess of it so far so I’m trying to fix things! I’ve had a read through the newbie info and I’m hopefully more on the right track but any input would be greatly appreciated! This is my first forum post so apologies if I’ve got this wrong!
My parking issue is with Britannia Parking and BW Legal and failure to get a ticket for free parking. This is a private car park that advertises 3 hrs free parking or 24 hrs for £7, but to get free parking you need to put your registration number in the machine to obtain a ticket. I’ve used this car park many times and have many tickets saved from previous dates. My issue is on this day the machine was being repaired by an engineer who I spoke with, they said it may be repaired in half hr or so and to come back, but I stated I was going elsewhere not into the premises directly on site so couldn’t come back in half hr, and he said not to worry. I obviously then received a fine. I was there for 2hrs 12mins so well within the free time period.
I contested this initially, stating I was the driver, as thought it would be fairly reasonable to not get a ticket if the machine is out of order, but was obviously declined stating I should have used alternative payment methods. The fine is currently at £160 with the threatening letters about bailiffs etc.
Investigations I’ve done so far after reading your advice:
Only 1 machine in the car park so no alternative machine to use at that time.
Fixed signage around car park doesn’t have any alternative payments listed - no car parking codes, mobile phone apps, phone numbers etc, everything states enter registration number in machine and press green button. I used this in my second email to contest the ticket and since then a sticker has appeared on the side of the actual machine with a car park code and mobile app but I can’t confirm the exact date it appeared, wasn’t there last year when this happened. All photographed.
Photos of another similar local car park run by another company with fixed signage clearly stating all different payment methods.
No signage in car park stating it’s for visitors to that specific premises only. It’s regularly used and advertised for free parking by other local businesses but as they don’t own the land I’m assuming this can’t be used?
Photo of multiple other tickets I’ve purchased on previous occasions to demonstrate I normally use this machine as directed.
I’ve spoken to an employee in the premises but if you can’t produce a receipt for something purchased at that time they wont cancel any fines. There’s multiple complaints appearing on their Facebook site about this.

I understand that if I go to court and lose I would mostly likely be charged £100 fine and £25 court costs which is less than I’m being asked for now, so I’m happy to carry on with this if that’s the most likely outcome? Or am I better cutting my loses?!

I believe my next steps are to request a SAR from the Data Protection Officer for Britannia which I’ve found on their website, I’m hoping this will show multiple fines in the run up to mine as the machine was out of service.
Can I request to see registration numbers of cars entering the car park that day as the engineers van was inside the car park so that should have ben picked up too?
Request to receive all photos taken of my vehicle, all letters and emails sent and received by Britannia/BW.
Ask for PDT machine record for that day and payments made, can I ask for previous day also as I suspect machine was possibly broken then too?
Request all data held and all evidence they will rely on, full copy of the PCN, NTK and all PCNs outstanding to me.
Use the form from BW but just tick the box for dispute the debt, not to tick anything else or disclose my financial position but use one of the template letters on the forum and amend this to my particular circumstances, or do I just do a basic letter to BW stating I’ve requested a SAR from their client Britannia and state I require a restriction of data processing and my case be put on hold, confirming my correct address at this stage?

I didn’t think it was worth writing to the land owner as I already know the reply I’ll receive, but is it advisable to just get this in writing?
Sounds like a letter to my local MPs may be advisable too?

Is there anything else that you think may be advisable at this stage as I’m assuming if I have this paperwork through they’ll be trying to get me to court?
Thank you all for your input it’s greatly appreciated!!

Coupon-mad

My issue is on this day the machine was being repaired by an engineer who I spoke with, they said it may be repaired in half hr or so and to come back, but I stated I was going elsewhere not into the premises directly on site so couldn’t come back in half hr, and he said not to worry. I obviously then received a fine. I was there for 2hrs 12mins so well within the free time period.

Sounds like a good defence to me.

I understand that if I go to court and lose I would mostly likely be charged £100 fine and £25 court costs which is less than I’m being asked for now, so I’m happy to carry on with this if that’s the most likely outcome? Or am I better cutting my loses?!

No, that's about right but the hearing adds another £25 so you'd be talking about some £160 including a bit of interest, if you lost.

I don't think you'd lose.

You are NOT better off paying this scam.

I believe my next steps are to request a SAR from the Data Protection Officer for Britannia which I’ve found on their website, I’m hoping this will show multiple fines in the run up to mine as the machine was out of service.

They can't. A SAR only gives you the right to ask for data held about you and your vehicle, which will be copies of the PCN & letters.

Can I request to see registration numbers of cars entering the car park that day as the engineers van was inside the car park so that should have ben picked up too?

No.

Request to receive all photos taken of my vehicle, all letters and emails sent and received by Britannia/BW.

Yes. That's what a SAR is about.

Ask for PDT machine record for that day and payments made, can I ask for previous day also as I suspect machine was possibly broken then too?

No.

Use the form from BW but just tick the box for dispute the debt

No. No-one anywhere on this forum tells anyone to use the forms. They are only designed for real debts IMHO and if people start filling them in, they will be filling in the wrong bits or giving BW Legal their financial info et al, none of which is appropriate.

If it were me, I'd send the SAR to Britannia, and then write/email to BW Legal telling them that there was an engineer repairing the machine at the time who told you not to worry as the machine was out of action, and there was only one machine and no other way to show your right to the free parking. So his verbal permission was enough, in law.

Point out that they are a legal firm and should know that the overriding objective of pre-action discussions is to resolve disputes without disproportionate cost to either party, or burdening the courts with meritless claims like this one.

Tell them because you KNOW there was an engineer there and KNOW the machine was not working and he gave permission to park, so not only is there no 'legitimate interest' existing that would disengage the penalty rule, but the Beavis case is so far distinguished from these facts, as to be a polar opposite.

Say that you require their client to now (pre-action) disclose the repair records from that day, before starting any claim. Put them to strict proof. Use those words.

And that if they fail to provide these records, you will consider their conduct in breach of the pre-action protocol for debt claims and wholly vexatious and unreasonable, and will have no hesitation in claiming your full costs on the indemnity basis for defending a completely worthless claim.

Quentin

Where do you see the likely cost if you lose in court as just £125??

Should it come to that it will be more than that ( not that you should pay now!!)

But don't use that figure -:£160/170 is more likely

Moneynewbee

Wow thank you for all of this! I’ll get the SAR sent off toBritannia and a letter to BW with your input about the engineer requesting that information and see what response I get. Kicking myself for not taking a photo of him repairing the machine! Thank you!

Moneynewbee

I thought I read it in a similar thread, the original fine is £100, BW have added £60 for their costs so now totals £160. Thought I’d seen a post with the BW costs often not being counted by the courts they just add their own courtcost to the original fine but I’ve obviously got confused. As long as it’s not going to cost hundreds more I’m happy to give it a try as I thought it was a reasonable reason to not get a ticket. Thank you!

Coupon-mad

I read it in a similar thread, the original fine is £100, BW have added £60 for their costs so now totals £160. Thought I’d seen a post with the BW costs often not being counted by the courts they just add their own court cost to the original fine but I’ve obviously got confused.

You are confusing the £60 fake (never incurred) 'debt collection' add on that is NOT recoverable, but they always add it and get away with it most of the time I'm sure, with the £50 court fees (2 x 25) that IS recoverable if a Claimant wins.

It's a different sum and the fake 'damages' MUST be attacked in any defence but not yet, as that will muddy the waters IMHO and they'll just argue that they 'can' add £60.

Concentrate on putting BW Legal's client to strict proof of the repair record time from that day.

rachity

My issue is on this day the machine was being repaired by an engineer who I spoke with, they said it may be repaired in half hr or so and to come back, but I stated I was going elsewhere not into the premises directly on site so couldn’t come back in half hr, and he said not to worry.

Some site signs stipulate that the car park is for customer use only?

The_Deep

If permission to park is conditional on obtaining a ticket and the PPC are unable to issue a ticket there can be no contract. No contract equals no breach of contact and they are trying to scam you. Get your MP on board.

Complain to your MP, they are drawing up a new regulations to control these scammers.

On 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Moneynewbee

Ok great thank you!

Moneynewbee

I’ve double checked all their signs and there isn’t anything stipulated about it being for visitors to that business only. I’ve used this car park for years with many other locals and it’s regularly used for the parade of shops opposite, only been an issue since Britannia cameras appeared oddly enough!

Moneynewbee

Excellent thank you! I’ll use that link and get on to my MP as well. Checked the fixed signage and it just states getting a ticket from the machine, no other payment method advertised on the fixed signage, therefore I wasn’t physically able to comply with their terms through no fault of my own, so that’s very useful to know! Thank you!