Deposit for rental property

middleclassbutpoor

Landlord is thinking of selling the property in which my mother currently resides.

I have been asking my mum to get a receipt for the deposit she paid in cash at the start but this hasn’t been forthcoming.

There is no mention of this in the Contract either from what my mum can see.

The contract was a 12 month contract and she resides in England.

I’ve asked my mum to get all of her paperwork out because she is leading me to conclude that there was no paperwork given to her apart from the contract. Reading GM’s guides, if this is the case and the landlord wants to sell then as she has just gone beyond the 12 months, she is now in a 2 month notice subject to a section 21 being served?

However as there has been no other paperwork so no notice of deposit being registered or safety certificates etc. Then that would also believe me to say that any notice served is invalid until the relevant paperwork is provided?

Am I understanding the situation correctly?

Likewise if it hasn’t been registered in a scheme, she can look to claim upto 3 x this back?

The problem I have is that we have no evidence of the deposit paid as the landlord never issued the receipt and my mum is too trusting at times. Anybody able to say what the situation is with this?

Any responses are much appreciated.

Slithery

Have you actually checked the 3 deposit schemes to see if it is protected?

middleclassbutpoor

Not checked anything but my mum didn’t realise it was required.

How do I check?

Slithery

You say that you've already read G_M's guides?

The answers are in there.

G_M

middleclassbutpoor wrote: »

Landlord is thinking of selling the property in which my mother currently resides.
Change of ownership does not alter the tenancy, just alters the landlord.

I have been asking my mum to get a receipt for the deposit she paid in cash at the start but this hasn’t been forthcoming.

There is no mention of this in the Contract either from what my mum can see.
Then if he denies receiving a deposit, it comes down to 'he said' Vs 'she said'. Who a court would believe is anybody's guess.

The contract was a 12 month contract and she resides in England.

I’ve asked my mum to get all of her paperwork out because she is leading me to conclude that there was no paperwork given to her apart from the contract.
well you won't know till you check so we can hardly advise.....

Reading GM’s guides,
Clearly not - since you say below "How do I check?" re the 3 deposit schemes......

if this is the case and the landlord wants to sell then as she has just gone beyond the 12 months, she is now in a 2 month notice subject to a section 21 being served?
Maybe /maybe not - depends what the tenancy agreement says. Though a S21 IS required to commence eviction if that's what the LL decides to do (new or old LL)

However as there has been no other paperwork so no notice of deposit being registered or safety certificates etc.
if LL successfully argues no deposit was paid, then no deposit need be registered.
However see also the 81 questions in the S21 validity checker in my guide.

Then that would also believe me to say that any notice served is invalid until the relevant paperwork is provided?
see S21 validity checker

Am I understanding the situation correctly? pretty much though with gaps in both your information, and your knowledge.

Likewise if it hasn’t been registered in a scheme, she can look to claim upto 3 x this back?
Assuming the court agrees a deposit was paid...........

The problem I have is that we have no evidence of the deposit paid as the landlord never issued the receipt and my mum is too trusting at times. Anybody able to say what the situation is with this? Yes

.

See the guides

theartfullodger

What evidence -

- written receipt...
- someone independent observing the transaction
- mum going to bank, very untypical, taking deposit & rent out, on her statement...
- emails/txts/voicemails detailing it
... does mum have that any deposit was ever paid, please?


How does mum pay rent? Please tell us it isn't cash, no receipt...

middleclassbutpoor

The deposit was paid by cash and she said that they would forward on receipt. Rent is by standing order.

Should the landlord confirm that they will definitely be selling, I have said we can send the landlord a text message asking what the process will be for getting back the £x deposit. The response then may give us the evidence we need. If they deny having it, then at least it sets the tone of what will proceed.

I have now checked the 3 schemes and no record of the deposit.

I have now got a copy of her tenancy agreement and I am trying to reassure her that she won't be thrown out on to the street with no notice.

There are the following paragraphs in the agreement:

Term

The term of the tenancy is a periodic tenancy commencing at 12noon on 5/3/18 and continuing on a year-to-year basis until the landlord or the tenant terminates the tenancy (the term)

Does this mean it has now moved into another 12 month tenancy?

Then when I look at the Termination details it states

Termination of Tenancy

The Landlord may terminate the tenancy by service on the tenant of a notice persuant to any ground provided under the Act. The landlord may serve such notice either;

a) to terminate the tenancy at its end date (e.g. a section 21 notice to quit)
b) refers to section 8 seeking notice of seeking possession where broken/not performed any of their obligations under the agreement
c)Other grounds provided such as landlord wanting to live in the property again

My mum is now asking me questions around if the landlord does proceed to sell, can she refuse to have the estate agent into the property whilst she is living there and if the house does go on the market whilst she is there, can she refuse viewings whilst living there?

Looking at the tenancy agreement, I can only find the following:

During the last 30 days of this agreement, the landlord or the landlords agents will have the privilege of displaying the usual For Sale/To Let signs on the property and the tenant agrees to allow the landlord or its agents reasonable access to the property at reasonable times for the purpose of displaying such signs upon the property.

I have understood that this does mean my Mum can refuse pictures to be taken of the property inside and viewings/valuations whilst she is still living there - however she cannot refuse the sign being put up within 30days of the agreement. Would this be the correct interpretation?

G_M

middleclassbutpoor wrote: »

The deposit was paid by cash and she said that they would forward on receipt. Rent is by standing order.
Oh dear!

Should the landlord confirm that they will definitely be selling, I have said we can send the landlord a text message asking what the process will be for getting back the £x deposit.
No no no no NO!
1) if you are simply told the LL is selling - THIS DOES NOT AFFECT THE TENANCY. So the deposit does not need to be returned.

2) If notice is seved via a S21, then yes, that is the first step to eviction, provided the S21 is valid. Have you checked the S21 checklist link yet? See also below.......

3) If and only if a valid S21 is served, then a letter to the landlord, sent to 'the address for serving notices' asking about the deposit. NOT a text. And the letter must come from the tenant, not from you.

The response then may give us the evidence we need. If they deny having it, then at least it sets the tone of what will proceed.

I have now checked the 3 schemes and no record of the deposit.

I have now got a copy of her tenancy agreement and I am trying to reassure her that she won't be thrown out on to the street with no notice.
Indeed.

There are the following paragraphs in the agreement:

Term

The term of the tenancy is a periodic tenancy commencing at 12noon on 5/3/18 and continuing on a year-to-year basis until the landlord or the tenant terminates the tenancy (the term)

Does this mean it has now moved into another 12 month tenancy?
Yes -it's a periodic tenancy. Current period is 5/3/19 - 4/3/20.

Then when I look at the Termination details it states

Termination of Tenancy

The Landlord may terminate the tenancy by service on the tenant of a notice persuant to any ground provided under the Act. The landlord may serve such notice either;

a) to terminate the tenancy at its end date (e.g. a section 21 notice to quit) so 2 months notice expiring on 4/3/20.
b) refers to section 8 seeking notice of seeking possession where broken/not performed any of their obligations under the agreement
eg rent arrears - bt see the other 17 grounds in my stickie

c)Other grounds provided such as landlord wanting to live in the property again
is this the exact wording? See S8 ground 1. Did the landlord used tolive in the property? Though a sale would not qualify for ground 1......

My mum is now asking me questions around if the landlord does proceed to sell, can she refuse to have the estate agent into the property whilst she is living there and if the house does go on the market whilst she is there, can she refuse viewings whilst living there?

Looking at the tenancy agreement, I can only find the following:

During the last 30 days of this agreement, the landlord or the landlords agents will have the privilege of displaying the usual For Sale/To Let signs on the property and the tenant agrees to allow the landlord or its agents reasonable accessto the property at reasonable times for the purpose of displaying such signs upon the property.
well there's your answer.

I have understood that this does mean my Mum can refuse pictures to be taken of the property inside and viewings/valuations whilst she is still living there - however she cannot refuse the sign being put up within 30days of the agreement. Would this be the correct interpretation?

Does not appear to mention access for viewings unless you have not quoted in full.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/21

(4)Without prejudice to any such right as is referred to in subsection (1) above, a court shall make an order for possession of a dwelling-house let on an assured shorthold tenancy which is a periodic tenancy if the court is satisfied—

(a)that the landlord or, in the case of joint landlords, at least one of them has given to the tenant a notice [F5in writing] stating that, after a date specified in the notice, being the last day of a period of the tenancy (ie

4/3/20) and not earlier than two months after the date the notice was given (ie notice served by 4/1/20), possession of the dwelling-house is required by virtue of this section; and

(b)that the date specified in the notice under paragraph (a) above is not earlier than the earliest day on which, apart from section 5(1) above, the tenancy could be brought to an end by a notice to quit given by the landlord on the same date as the notice under paragraph (a) above.

middleclassbutpoor

Hi GM

Yes I have looked at the checklist thank you.

If section 21 is served, it falls out at 10 as my mum states she never received any paperwork other than the tenancy agreement.

I presume we will write back stating that this hasn't been received so notice is invalid?

there was no gas safety certificate provided so if not provided before notice is received, we can write back to this effect? It is now over 12 months so again even if they argue there was one given at outset, its out of date?

If they then provide that, we can then advise we haven't had the guide to letting checklist so they will then have to serve notice again? (Would we need another one now the tenancy has started again for 12 months?)

Is that how it works?

So just for clarity - does this mean now that if they want to serve notice, we are ok for 12 months and if they want her to move, they will have to make it worth her time etc?

middleclassbutpoor

under access it states

Access

The landlord and tenant will complete and sign a tenancy report at the beginning and end of this tenancy

I cannot find any other reference in the 8 pages which references the landlord being allowed access unless it relates to the tenant being absent or implied/actual surrender.

in response to the section 8 question

b) to terminate the tenancy where the tenant has broken or not performed any of his obligations under this agreement (e.g. a section 8 motice of seeking possession), or

c) to ternminate the tenancy for any other ground provided in the act (e.g. landlord is seeking to live in the property again)

Landlord bought as a Buy to Let property.

G_M

middleclassbutpoor wrote: »

Hi GM

Yes I have looked at the checklist thank you.

If section 21 is served, it falls out at 10 as my mum states she never received any paperwork other than the tenancy agreement.
yes. Though it's a bit early to be worrying....!

I presume we will write back stating that this hasn't been received so notice is invalid?
No!

Why help the LL to do his job?

If / when the landlord serves a S21, you simply wait 2 months.
If/when the LL then applies to court, you defend the possession application in court on the grounds the S21 was invalid.

there was no gas safety certificate provided so if not provided before notice is received, we can write back to this effect?
No. as above.

It is now over 12 months so again even if they argue there was one given at outset, its out of date?
The LL now has 10 months to provide one - why not wait and see if he does?
Though personally I'd be wanting a gas report on safety grounds so tenant might want to wirte to the LL requesing a gas inspection rather than risk CO poisoning.........

If they then provide that, we can then advise we haven't had the guide to letting checklist so they will then have to serve notice again? (Would we need another one now the tenancy has started again for 12 months?)
As above. You defend the S21 in court. You do not write to the LL.

Is that how it works? No. (unless you want to be helpful an assist the LL in getting his eviction right).

So just for clarity - does this mean now that if they want to serve notice, we are ok for 12 months and if they want her to move, they will have to make it worth her time etc?

If the LL wants the tenant to leave before 4/3/20 he will have to make a request of the tenant, and the tenant can
* agree
* refuse or
* agree subject to whatever conditions/payments etc she wishes

(or unless there are rent arrears or some other S8 Ground for eviction)


But remember- there is nothing to stop the landlord selling to another landlord, who would simply take over your existing tenancy.