Carflow PCN

KingCesc04

Dear team,

Having discovered this forum last week (after my 1st parking offence), I am now going to try and help a friend with another PCN, this really is a wonderful resource, thank you!

Issued a PCN for spending 78 minutes in a 60 minute car park run by Carflow in Chalfont St Peter. I have categorically told them not to identify the driver (I learnt my lesson) but would welcome some advice on the few cases I have found on here that have been successful, as it seems like this car park, more so than many others, has pretty clear and comprehensive signs and T&Cs.

One user won with POPLA on the basis that the PCN says "The charge must be paid no later than 28 days from the date of issue. if payment is delayed beyond 28 days, an administrative charge may be added and debt recovery.....". From the POPLA decision, it appears section 9 of POFA dictates it must 28 days from the day after the date of the issue. From the forum's experience, is the ever a debatable point of success?

Another user managed to be successful on the basis of a "grace period" (they were 16 minutes over) but these seems highly variable, even with reasonable excuses. Any words of advice with this?

Happy to post the relevant parts of the PCN if it would help.

Thank you all!

Redx

if a PPC wishes to make a keeper liable they have to follow the wording of POFA, including timescales and wording on the NTK

The timescale is by DAY 15 if NO WINDSCREEN TICKET WAS ISSUED on the day (so when using cameras)

and that POFA paragraph as well (which is usually present on PE ntk,s), plus some other bits and pieces as explained in the NEWBIES thread

as for grace periods, download and read the BPA CoP , January 2018 edition, tells you all about them in clause #13, plus POFA and a lot of other stuff too

Coupon-mad

One user won with POPLA on the basis that the PCN says "The charge must be paid no later than 28 days from the date of issue. if payment is delayed beyond 28 days, an administrative charge may be added and debt recovery.....". From the POPLA decision, it appears section 9 of POFA dictates it must 28 days from the day after the date of the issue. From the forum's experience, is the ever a debatable point of success?

I think you must have misunderstood which 28 day period the Assessor was looking at. The POFA doesn't talk about any PAYMENT 28 day period.

You can see what the POFA says in paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 and it's not about 28 day periods for payment.

KingCesc04

Thank you both, RedX, I shall look at the January issue now and try to unpick it.

Coupon-mad, sorry for the ignorance, but reading through Section 9(2)f:

(2)The notice must— warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

Is that not relating to payment of the PCN? Sorry, this is all still new to me.


(Below is the post from the POPLA decision forum:

Hi, hope this is the correct place to put this. My appeal against Carflow re the St Peter's Court, Car Park, Chalfont St Peter was successful. Thank you for all the help that is on the MSE site. Hope this might help others.
27.3.18
POPLA Decision: Successful
Assessor Name: LB

Assessor Summary of the operator case: The operator's case is that the appellant exceeded the maximum stay.

Assessor summary of appellant's case: The appellant's case is that the signage is inadequate. The appellant said the signs are unlit and illegible. The appellant has questioned if the operator has the authority to issue parking charges on the land in question. The appellant said that the NtK does not meet the requirements of the POFA 2012. The appellant stated the signs do not comply with section 21.1 of the BPA Code regarding ANPR.

Assessor Supporting rationale for decision: While the appellant has raised a separate ground of appeal, my report will focus solely on if the NtK was compliant with the POFA 2012. As the appellant has not declared he was the driver of the vehicle, I must consider whether the conditions of POFA 2012 were met. After reviewing the evidence provided by both parties, I am not satisfied that, the appellant has been identified as the driver at the time of the relevant parking event. The operator is therefore pursuing the appellant as the Registered Keeper of the vehicle in this instance. The NtK will need to comply with section 9 of POFA 2012 that states that the creditor must 'warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given - (i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and (ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, . the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Section are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid'. The NtK sent by the operator states "the charge must be paid no later than 28 days from the date of issue". In this case I do not consider that the operator has fully met the requirements of POFA as by informing the appellant it can seek to recover payment after 28 days, it has failed to meet section (2f) as this 28 day period will not begin until the day after the notice is given. As such, I cannot conclude that the PCN has been issued correctly."

[Carflow put 9(2)(f) in its own (wrong) words on the NtK, so it is worth checking what others have on their NtK's. If it says "...29 days from the date of issue.." etc, as my NtK did, plus the Assessor's other points, then that is very helpful for an appeal.)

Coupon-mad

Is that not relating to payment of the PCN?

Well 2(i) is, but that's not the wording PPCs normally muck up. Look at (ii).

''29 days from the date of issue'' is actually correct. ''28 days'' wouldn't be.

KingCesc04

So as they have put 28 days in their letter and not 29, would they be breaching the POFA guidance?

D_P_Dance

Complain to your MP. On 18th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Coupon-mad

KingCesc04 wrote: »

So as they have put 28 days in their letter and not 29, would they be breaching the POFA guidance?

The POFA is not guidance. You can compare the wording from 9(2)f and see.

KingCesc04

Thank you for all your help, I sadly have not done enough to convince my friend to appeal. On to the next one!

joannaber

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I got a ticket yesterday from the same car park. We overstayed by 28 minutes
It was late (18.47 to 20.15) and the car park was dark and mostly empty. The notices were therefore not easy to read. We assumed there were no restrictions after 6 pm.

As my son is autistic, he attends the Youth club for autistic people on Tuesday evening in the local Youth Centre. The car was recorded by Carflow when we visited the M&S shop in the precinct while waiting to take him back home. We overstayed because our son was late leaving the club as he was helping put the chairs away.
Is it worth appealing as it was our fault for not reading the notices?
thank you for any advice.

StaffsSW

Better to start your own thread to keep the various issues separate from the original, but you may have a good case to argue under Equality Act 2010.

Other posters on here are better versed on this subject than I am though.