Popla

KingCesc04

Dear team,

First post here and am amazed I have not come across this forum already! I have looked through the guides and I think I understand the likely route but cannot find a similar case through searching. I now know I missed earlier opportunities but am now at the POPLA junction and would welcome some advice.

I used a station ticket machine to pay for parking at an APCOA car park and bought my ticket the night before. I have received a PCN for that day but looking back, I have not kept the receipt with my registration plate on it. I appealed with a screenshot of the payment for parking from my bank statement but this was rejected. I have telephoned and requested that they tell me what registration was entered to correspond with that payment reference / credit card but they deny being able to do this. I am now at the stage of appealing through POPLA or paying the reduced charge on the PCN (which it seems from this forum this should not be done!).

A few questions, are they obliged to give me a record of what registration was entered on their system for my card number or payment reference?
If I entered an incorrect registration number, do I understand from your NEWBIE posts that I may have grounds to say they have not incurred any loss?

Thank you!

Fruitcake

You can send an SAR to CRAPCOA asking them to supply all personal data they hold relating to you, which includes your VRN. This may not arrive in time for your PoPLA appeal though so may not help.

Did you give away the driver's identity in your appeal like you have in your post above, or did you appeal as keeper?

If this was a railway station car park then byelaws probably apply so "not relevant land" will be one of your main points at PoPLA. If this is the case then search for other APCOA byelaw appeals.

Have you complained to your MP yet about this unregulated scam?

Redx

this APCOA train station one should help, because its already written so not much to do other than change incorrect facts and dates etc

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5803128/parking-charge-notice-apoca

KingCesc04

Thank you for replying!

I did give the driver identity - I naively did not search for this forum when I received the PCN and assumed it would go away once they had seen I had paid.

In the SAR, would they have linked my payment reference / credit card to the registration entered? If so, I will use head down that route.

It is a station car park so shall use that thank you, does the no loss incurred rule also stand?

Redx

the only thing to remove for a driver is the POFA issues, because they do not apply due to you blabbing about who was driving (never do this for private parking tickets or station , port and airport tickets unless you hate the person named as the driver and want to dob them in)

the only data that APCOA have to provide you with under GDPR is YOUR DATA, so insist on getting redacted PDT info which relates to your vehicle or similar and give a time frame if nEcessary, same if you ask for your data about payments made - they cannot and should not and will not give you any other data that isnt yours, so no signs , no contracts etc

KingCesc04

Thank you Redx, I cannot see any reference in the Newbies section to a template or directions if you have (stupidly) named the driver?

Redx

THATS BECAUSE THERE ISNT ONE

all you do is look at any examples or templates for these matters and REMOVE the information that relates to POFA and KEEPER liability

that leaves you with the common ground for ALL cases

KingCesc04

Thank you, I shall get going on that this evening. Now that I have named the driver is it likely the POPLA appeal will be rejected and I will be riding out the debt collector letters or is the common ground appeal still accepted?

Redx

no idea , nobody can answer that

all you can do is hope that the common ground arguments win the case at POPLA, but there are NO guarantees

the POFA argument is what usually kills off APCOA, because they always fail and so APCOA withdraw before POPLA make a ruling and so do not issue an evidence pack for any ruling to be made (they throw in the towel in almost every POFA case because POFA does not apply at train stations , airport or ports due to the bylaws in place)

we see few cases like yours, so we have no idea if APCOA will put in an evidence pack for POPLA to study

I am sure debt collector letters may be sent, but nobody is interested in those (see post #4 of the NEWBIES thread)

I doubt that your TOC will take it to MAGS COURT within 6 months , never seen one yet anyway

KingCesc04

Just completing my POPLA appeal process with the above advice, thank you. I know it was a real error identifying the driver, learnt my lesson, however, on the POPLA homepage there is announcement from POPLA about DfT advice and it links to a document (sorry I cannot post hyperlinks but on the POPA homepage at the bottom).

At the bottom of page 2, they say:

Timescales for ticketing
The Railway Byelaws set out no timescales for the issue of a penalty for breach of Byelaws. However, the parking operator is timed out of prosecuting the motorist for breach of Byelaws after six months.
We consider a lack of timescales unreasonable to motorists in respect of appealing. If a driver or an owner did not receive notification of a parking charge or penalty until several months after an incident of alleged improper parking, they may have little or no memory of the event and their ability to appeal will be hampered.
POFA 2012 sets out timescales for the issuing of parking charge notices. While POFA 2012 does not apply on Railway Land, the standards have been put in place for situations similar to those in question. As those standards are used across the industry, and both parking operators and motorists are familiar with the standards, we consider it suitable that we use these standards as a guide when considering appeals against penalties issued on Railway Land.

What does this mean in practice? Penalty notice:
• Affixed to vehicle: this should be given by affixing it to the vehicle at the time the alleged breach of Byelaws is identified.
• Issued via post following a penalty notice affixed to vehicle: this should be given in the period of 28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the initial penalty notice was affixed to the vehicle.
• Issued via post without a penalty notice having previously being affixed to vehicle: this should be issued in the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

Am I reading this wrong? The alleged dispute occurred on the 14th February and the PCN was received on the 7th March. Should I include this in my POPLA appeal? Especially as I cannot use many of the POFA arguments for identifying the driver?

KingCesc04

Furthermore, their second point states:

We set out the following expectations for a Penalty Notice for breach of Byelaws on Railway Land:

A Penalty Notice should:
• Say it is a Penalty Notice (this can be abbreviated to PN providing the phrase Penalty Notice is used first) - they called it a Parking Charge Notice.
• Be dated
• Specify the alleged contravention including the time and date, site, and period of parking - arguably, they only specify one date and time (the time of leaving). The photos are time stamped but they do not state how long the parking offence took.
• Confirm how the Byelaws were brought to the motorist’s attention
• Confirm the law under which it has been issued
• Be issued to the vehicle owner (Registered Keeper assumed to owner unless proved
otherwise)
• Confirm potential consequences of non-payment, including prosecution
• Confirm the amount of the penalty – which should be the same as the penalty shown in the
car park
• Inform the owner of any discount offered
• Explain how to pay and who to pay
• Confirm the appeal procedure

A penalty notice should not:
• Mention POFA 2012 (as this is not relevant and will confuse the owner about the situation in which they find themselves)
• Mention ParkingEye Vs Beavis (as this is not relevant and will confuse the owner about the situation in which they find themselves)
• Say the words “parking charge”, “parking charge notice”, or “PCN” (as this is not relevant and will confuse the owner about the situation in which they find themselves)
• Refer to keeper or driver liability (as this is not relevant and will confuse the owner about the situation in which they find themselves)
• Say anything untrue or misleading

John Gallagher Lead Adjudicator

I have copies of the initial PCN saved as images - is there a way to upload them here to see as I think it would be easiest if seen what I was sent? From what I can tell they have not done the items in bold above?

Also, does their initial appeal rejection letter cover them for these aspects? See below:

Thank you for your appeal received 07 March 2019 against the above Parking Charge Notice. Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you, we must advise your appeal has been unsuccessful on this occasion.
On the day in question, your vehicle was parked without a valid payment, therefore it was parked in breach of the terms and conditions of the car park and a Parking Charge Notice was issued correctly. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that they have a valid payment for the entire time that they are parked in the car park and that this payment is made straight away when parking.
We have been through the payment records for the day in question, and have been unable to locate an entry for this vehicle registration.


As your vehicle was parked in contravention of the terms and conditions of the site we are satisfied that the notice was correctly issued in accordance with the BPA code of practice, and therefore not able to waiver the charge on this occasion.

Therefore you now have a number of options:
Pay the Parking Charge Notice at the discounted price of £50 within 14 days. Please note that after this time the Parking Charge Notice will increase to £85.
How to pay
Online at XXXXXXXX
Or send a Cheque or Postal Order made payable to APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd to: APCOA PARKING, PO BOX 222, LOWTON WAY, HELLABY, SHEFFIELD S98 1NX.

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. You now have the option to make an appeal to POPLA - The Independant Appeals Service. You can do this within 28 days of this letter by completing the online appeal form at XXXXXX quoting the verification reference number 0510799035. Please be advised that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case, the Parking Charge Notice will be considered at the full amount of £85. If you require a hard copy of the POPLA form please contact our customer service centre on 0345 301 1151 where one of our customer service agents will be happy to assist you.

By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman ServicesXXXXX provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.
If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
Yours Faithfully
Appeals Department APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd