NTK for PCN - Access Road at Retail Park in Pontefract.

2_Foot_of_Head

Hi everbody,

I've recently received a NTK for a PCN for stopping in a zone where stopping is not permitted. Basically, the NTK makes the following allegation.

"The Contravention was detected and recorded by Mobile Enforcement Cameras (CCTV) at the Privately Operated access roads as specified above. The driver of the above vehicle is liable for the Parking Charge for which payment is now due. The period of parking to which this Notice relates is the period immediately preceding the Contravention Time stated in this Notice. The charge has been incurred for the reason stated and liability for the same having been brought to the attention of the driver by clear signage placed at the entrance to the controlled area (site) and in prominent places throughout.

The NTK includes 3 x date and time stamped images of the vehicle in question, with 1 minute and 3 seconds between the first and final image. It is obvious that the enforcement camera has moved at some stage as the viewing angle changes between the first and final images.
Also included on the NTK is a clip-art type image of a No Stopping sign - however, after returning to the site, the signs there display the No Waiting sign, with the text "PRIVATE LAND, No Parking or Waiting on Access Road, Charges Apply 24 Hours Per Day, Parking Charge £100." There is also text relating to the fact that by entering this private land you are entering into a contract with VCS - however, the picture I took is blurred, so I will have to return to get more images. There are no markings on the road in this area.

I fully intend to appeal the PCN and spent 3 and a half hours reading the Newbies stickies on here last night in order to get prepared. The problem I have now is any appeal has to be lodged online at myparkingcharge.co.uk. where there is a section relating to the "Appeal Details" and a "Reason" which invites you to select an option from a drop down menu. The only options that don't allude to who was driving are as follows:

My vehicle is permitted to park and is on the vehicle exemptions list.
My vehicle was not in the car park at the time the contravention occurred.
There was no signage at the car park/location indicating any restrictions.
This vehicle has never been owned by me.
My number plate was cloned.
The vehicle was stolen or taken without my consent.

There is no "other" option and it seems to me, that the ones listed above do not accurately reflect my reason for appealing - the best option is the one relating to signage. However, as I've already mentioned, I have already returned to the site and there are several signs. It seems to me that they are deliberately trying to get me to enter an incorrect or misleading reason for appeal to make it easier for them to reject my appeal. I have tried to submit the form without selecting a reason for appeal but this is not possible.

As a newbie, any advice or opinions are both welcome and greatly appreciated.

Redx

what other options are on the NTK besides an online appeal ?

postal ? if so , send the appeal by post and get a free certificate of posting from the P O Counter , then staple it to a copy of the appeal and keep it safe

2_Foot_of_Head

Hi Redx,

Appeals are to be made online or by scanning a QR code on the NTK. There is a postal address provided on the notice but in a complaints section, it states the following:

"COMPLAINTS: If you wish to challenge the validity of this PCN you MUST use the appeals procedure detailed above. If you wish to complain, you must do so in the first instance at the address below. If you are not satisfied with the response you receive, you may then complain to the IPC (further details can be found at theIPC.info)."

So it looks like they only accept appeals online.

Redx

what about for people who are NOT online , they are discrimanted against if there is no postal option ?

IMHO there is always a postal option, in which case, use it , or do it anyway, because if they have the cheek to write to you at your home address, then I believe you have the right to write to them at their address


in any case, they wont read or bother with your appeal other than to reject it out of hand anyway, hence keep a copy of the letter and proof of postage

2_Foot_of_Head

Hi Redx,

I hear what you are saying but there is no mention of appealing by post - this method is only available for complaints.

Redx

yeah I know, I just checked, but my point still stands, if they can use post , so can you, regardless of their stupid "rules". a judge is not going to rule in their favour just because people do not use the internet

you do realise that any appeal is automatically rejected anyway, its just a paper exercise and you are keeping proof of your written appeal and posting it

you are doing the postal letter and cert of posting and keeping it as evidence to put before a judge that you appealed as keeper, by post, if it gets that far (its a paper exercise only)

2_Foot_of_Head

Hi Redx,

I do appreciate that the appeals process is just going through the motions - I think I'm being overly conscious that I don't want to give them an easy option to reject, as in not following their procedure for appealing, or by giving an incorrect reason for the appeal.

They even state in the appeals section "IMPORTANT NOTE: Appeals cannot be discussed or accepted over the telephone." So you can't even inform them you intend to appeal in writing.

Redx

well, its your choice, I have had my say, its either do what I would do or choose the online signage point, your choice


and put a complaint in to the IPC about the lack of a choice for a keeper, plus complain that the lack of a postal appeal system is discrimination

Coupon-mad

No need to post an appeal.

Here we go, this one:

My vehicle was not in the car park at the time the contravention occurred.

Well it wasn't a car park was it, so that gets you in the door.

Then you do an appeal that you do realise is futile, I hope, just an exercise in not ignoring the scam.

You can start by saying:

Your appeal options are awful, but as the location is not a car park, I chose the above, for want of a choice called 'other' or 'cash cow site/predatory ticket'.


...then add the template appeal from the NEWBIES thread, changing the bit about PDT machine/VRN and permits, for a para instead just saying that they are clearly riding roughshod over the IPC CoP rules about signage, grace periods and predatory ticketing.

2_Foot_of_Head

Hi Redx and Coupon m,

Thanks for all the advice...and for cheering me up a bit as well. I think I'll go for the online option...it seems the easiest and as you've said, it is just going through the motions and will be thrown out.

2_Foot_of_Head

Well, I've received a reply from my appeal...guess what, it's a rejection!




I realise the next step is to wait for a LBC as an IAS appeal is futile but I've been researching The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, as the on-site signage seems a little DIY, and I wondered if these may provide a defence.



The sign at the entrance displays a "No Stopping" symbol - from what I can see in the Regs, this sign should be illuminated as it's in an area where streetlighting is used. More importantly, the symbol should be a minimum of 300mm in diameter.



These are the signs within the "Restricted Area" - from what I can make out in the Regs, the background should be yellow and the symbol should be a minimum of 125mm in diameter.

Finally, the "Dear John" letter states "your vehicle stopped for an unreasonable amount of time on the access road where restrictions apply". The CCTV stills on the PCN have time stamps which cover a total of 1 min and 3 secs - so, I'm just wondering what defines "unreasonable" and if there is any legally accepted time? Would observation and grace periods apply in these circumstances?