PIP December 2017 High Court ruling

HellaHeart

Hi could someone move the above posters post to a separate thread please? As you said otherwise this is going to get very confusing.

Well the irony here is my condition has IMPROVED rather than deteriorated. I have gone from being unable to leave the house at all (10 points) to being able to leave the house when accompanied by someone else (12 points).

What a strange way to look at things. Having your condition improve meaning you score higher!

Being given the correct medication after waiting to see the secondary health care team (home visit) has lead to this change in circumstances for the better.

“Its not a binary game anyway - a claimant can request supersession in the basis of deterioration and appeal the original decision at the same time.”

Could you explain this statement for me a little more clearly so I know what my next step should be?

I believe I’m due an extra point as they gave me 1 for needs prompting to take medication but failed to acknowledge the therapy under 3.5 hours per week. So I’d like to take it to tribunal based on this, but then I have the situation of what to do regarding the change in circumstances which would take me from 10 to 12 points.

poppy12345

HellaHeart wrote: »

Hi could someone move the above posters post to a separate thread please? As you said otherwise this is going to get very confusing.

Well the irony here is my condition has IMPROVED rather than deteriorated. I have gone from being unable to leave the house at all (10 points) to being able to leave the house when accompanied by someone else (12 points).

What a strange way to look at things. Having your condition improve meaning you score higher!

Being given the correct medication after waiting to see the secondary health care team (home visit) has lead to this change in circumstances for the better.

“Its not a binary game anyway - a claimant can request supersession in the basis of deterioration and appeal the original decision at the same time.”

Could you explain this statement for me a little more clearly so I know what my next step should be?

I believe I’m due an extra point as they gave me 1 for needs prompting to take medication but failed to acknowledge the therapy under 3.5 hours per week. So I’d like to take it to tribunal based on this, but then I have the situation of what to do regarding the change in circumstances which would take me from 10 to 12 points.

For the mobility, if you're claiming for mental health then you would need to show that you have overwhelming psychological distress, which means. A claimant who is actively suicidal or who is at substantial risk of exhibiting violent behaviour and who needs to be accompanied by another person to prevent them harming themselves or others when undertaking a journey would meet this
descriptor." Does that describe you? (the 3 month rule will still apply here)



For the descriptor managing therapy and monitor a health condition. To score more than 1 point on this the therapy you receive must be in your own home. If you go out to attend an appointment for this therapy then you won't score any points.


It must also be prescribed or recommended by a registered doctor, nurse, pharmacist or health professional regulated by the Health Professions Council. Without any of which their health is likely to deteriorate. Does this describe you?


As for post #9, it most likely won't be removed, it happens all the time. People ask questions on other peoples threads and they never get removed.

HellaHeart

I’ve already proved beyond a doubt I have overwhelming psychological distress, hence the reason they’ve already awarded me 10 points, and after a mandatory reconsideration that didn’t change. So my mental health issue they aren’t questioning - they’ve accepted that’s the case.

The only difference now is I’m able to leave the house accompanied with someone, if not, then I would suffer from the above.

As for the therapy it is online based cognitive behavioural therapy, not just recommended but insisted that I complete by numerous medical professionals.

My question really is how I go about this. Do I declare a change of circumstances, or go to tribunal and declare it at that time. Mine would be a paper based tribunal, not in person.

poppy12345

For a change of circumstances you must have had them for at least 3 months, you said it's been since January so that doesn't qualify you for that.



A Tribunal won't take into consideration what you were like are the date of the decision.

A supersession maybe possible but i not familiar with that so can't advise but this link will help you. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/benefits-introduction/problems-with-benefits-and-tax-credits/challenging-a-benefit-decision/challenging-a-dwp-benefit-decision-on-or-after-28-october-2013/changing-a-benefit-decision-by-revision-and-supersession/changing-a-dwp-benefit-decision-by-supersession/



For the CBT do you need prompting/supervision/assistance?



Only 8% of those that have a paper based decision have a decision in their favour. A Tribunal will always prefer a claimant to appear in person because they will want to hear from you how your conditions affect you in your own words. Sometimes they can't make a decision by evidence alone and will ask you to appear in person. Appearing in person increases your chances to 71%.

Alice_Holt

"I believe I’m due an extra point as they gave me 1 for needs prompting to take medication but failed to acknowledge the therapy under 3.5 hours per week...As for the therapy it is online based cognitive behavioural therapy, not just recommended but insisted that I complete by numerous medical professionals."

Have you looked at the PIP assessment guide I posted @ 2, Hella Heart?

This clearly states "Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage
therapy...."

What assistance do you need for the online CBT?

To succeed at tribunal you need to understand the descriptor, and give compelling evidence to the panel to show why you should qualify for additional points.

I strongly suggest you get face to face advice from your local advice agency / CAB.
If you do it without help you could come across to the tribunal panel as a "barrack room lawyer" or vexatious, and may place your existing award at risk.

If you don't understand the resources I have linked to, please get advice, don't just rely on your own interpretation of PIP legislation and case law.

HellaHeart

For the same reasons I need to be prompted to take my medication - which they have agreed to and awarded me this point - I need prompting to complete online CBT. Same priniciple. Someone will need to encourage / pressure / convince / prompt me to do so. With something such as anxiety, and being forced to confront your triggers, leaving you in an extremely uncomfortable position, you’ll need prompting, believe me.

I’ve read all the literature and was aware of the point scoring beforehand. I misunderstood discriptor e for can’t leave the house due to psychological distress, I assumed the ruling was in relation to this and now I know it isn’t.

Facing a tribunal isn’t something I’d be able to do given the seriousness of my condition. All my medical records back up what I say hence they’ve already agreed to everything. They just forgot the CBT as I mentioned it in the original claim and I believe I may have failed to remind them in the mandatory reconsieration.

I’m going to put in for a tribunal. What I want to know is how I update my circumstances 3 months after the fact of being able to leave the house accompanied by someone, and what the result of this will be. Will it lead to another assessment etc?

poppy12345

HellaHeart wrote: »

What I want to know is how I update my circumstances 3 months after the fact of being able to leave the house accompanied by someone, and what the result of this will be. Will it lead to another assessment etc?

You said since January here,

HellaHeart wrote: »

Anyway, back to my personal situation. I have been on medication since January after seeing the secondary health care team at my home. Since this time, I have been able to leave the house if I am accompanied by someone.

As previously advised, for PIP you must have had the conditions for at least 3 months and this applies to change of condition. As your condition for following and planning a journey only changed since January then it doesn't count at the moment.

HellaHeart

Sorry for your misunderstanding.

When I say 3 months after the fact, I mean just that. How I update my circumstances 3 months following January. In other words, when April arrives.

poppy12345

A supersession maybe possible but i'm not 100% sure on that.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/benefits-introduction/problems-with-benefits-and-tax-credits/challenging-a-benefit-decision/challenging-a-dwp-benefit-decision-on-or-after-28-october-2013/changing-a-benefit-decision-by-revision-and-supersession/changing-a-dwp-benefit-decision-by-supersession/


Failing that, it will be a change of circumstances, which will most likely be another face to face assessment. If you did this, any new decision will overrule a Tribunal decision.



You must also expect that condition to last at least 9 months.