Contentious Probate...

Mojisola

spaniel101 wrote: »

This is useful to know as is the same as our executed plan with my mothers house. Did you purely apply for letters of administration or did you not even need those?

LOA are needed to administer an estate if there is no will - Mum had a will but we didn't need probate because of most of her estate was is joint names.

The few things that weren't jointly owned were of low value and the companies handed the money over on production of the will and death certificate.

spaniel101

So, by the grace of god, here we are, 2020.  My father passed 2016.  This situation is now coming up to 4 years.
We issued the Part 8 cost proceedings (re Bill of costs), and Sister lost.  She had to pay £5K costs of Part 8 to my mother (for the benefit!!), plus was made to pay the 70% of the bill of costs (which we were warned is standard procedure thereabouts). 
Over the last 12 months, the house has been reduced in price at least 4 times, has gone back up once (it is now within >8% of the original probate value of 2016 - I suspect enough for her to avoid CGT), has within the last couple of months, had a leak fixed/partially repainted.   We've heard 'on the grapevine' that my Sister is stoney broke, and now at least appears, in a desperate state, to receive her money from the property, since she has now run out of all options that enable her to put my mother through the mill any further.  Given the current pandemic, we are all but waiting on a sale for my mother to receive her settlement.
In the meantime, I think we have all bases covered for my mother, but we do have a couple of questions I am hoping some of you may be kind enough to help with;  

1) Their marital home, by survivorship to my mother from my father, has been placed into Joint names between my mother and myself, which we all live in together, for which I pay all the bills.
2) My mother completed her Will back in 2018, albeit may need updating dependant on what my mother's wishes are in relation to her settlement.  The letter of wishes still requires completion, although my mother is going to address this with the solicitors, otherwise it is going to end up a huge 50 page letter.
3) LPA's (both financial and health) were completed back in 2018.  To add, my mother is compos mentis at the age of 75, albeit with some physical disabilities.  They both have my old address on (and also an old address for the second nominated person).   We phoned the solicitors at one point to update these addresses on the LPA's, but this was greeted with astonishment (albeit from the person answering the phone) as to why we would wish to do them all again, just for the sake of addresses.  They suggested simply offering up proof of changed addresses, if and when the time arose, rather than doing them again.   They did however, make a note at their end.  My concern is, is this ok, or should I be pushing for them to be updated on a more formal basis ?   
4)  There is an old insurance policy, which my mother doesn't think is worth a great deal (my mother thinks this is similar to a 'penny policy'.  My grandmother (mother's mother), took out this policy on my mother's life, way back in 1960's with, I believe at the time CIS.  She had a payment book, signed every month by the visiting insurance man, which we still have to this day.  My grandmother passed away in 1995 and we never got around to doing anything at all with this policy.  So, we have recently made enquiries and this lead us to Royal London.  They sent my mother some forms to fill in for 'change of ownership' of the policy.  My mother's wishes were for this to be put into my name, however we were informed the ownership had to go to the next of kin/direct descendent  to my grandmother (no Will), which is my mother.  So, ultimately, after numerous ID checks/photos etc, my mother now has this policy, on her own life, of which she is the owner, with myself named as beneficiary (I hope this makes sense!).  The only thing that bothers us slightly, is that we have zero information on this policy, all we have is the aforementioned payment booklet.  Should we really be asking Royal London for some kind of paperwork in relation to this policy ?  

Thank you in advance, much appreciated as always.

Brynsam

3) LPA's (both financial and health) were completed back in 2018.  To add, my mother is compos mentis at the age of 75, albeit with some physical disabilities.  They both have my old address on (and also an old address for the second nominated person).   We phoned the solicitors at one point to update these addresses on the LPA's, but this was greeted with astonishment (albeit from the person answering the phone) as to why we would wish to do them all again, just for the sake of addresses.  They suggested simply offering up proof of changed addresses, if and when the time arose, rather than doing them again.   They did however, make a note at their end.  My concern is, is this ok, or should I be pushing for them to be updated on a more formal basis ?   
4)  There is an old insurance policy, which my mother doesn't think is worth a great deal (my mother thinks this is similar to a 'penny policy'.  My grandmother (mother's mother), took out this policy on my mother's life, way back in 1960's with, I believe at the time CIS.  She had a payment book, signed every month by the visiting insurance man, which we still have to this day.  My grandmother passed away in 1995 and we never got around to doing anything at all with this policy.  So, we have recently made enquiries and this lead us to Royal London.  They sent my mother some forms to fill in for 'change of ownership' of the policy.  My mother's wishes were for this to be put into my name, however we were informed the ownership had to go to the next of kin/direct descendent  to my grandmother (no Will), which is my mother.  So, ultimately, after numerous ID checks/photos etc, my mother now has this policy, on her own life, of which she is the owner, with myself named as beneficiary (I hope this makes sense!).  The only thing that bothers us slightly, is that we have zero information on this policy, all we have is the aforementioned payment booklet.  Should we really be asking Royal London for some kind of paperwork in relation to this policy ?  

Thank you in advance, much appreciated as always.

1. and 2. Seem to be statements, not questions
3. Nothing to do with the solicitors, although the response you got was correct if the person you spoke to believed you wanted to completely redo them. See https://www.publicguardian-scotland.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/registration/changes-and-amendments for what you need to do
4. No harm in asking, but if you have a policy number and the paperwork confirming the ownership has been changed to your mother, that'll suffice.

Gers

What a nightmare for you and your mother.

I can only offer an answer to number three - when I moved house I wrote to the Office of Public Guardian (we're in Scotland) which then sent confirmation to my DM.  Now I keep that letter along with the PoA in hard copy and on my phone.

Number four...my DM has an ancient policy with the Prudential, dating back to 1957 which was taken out for my father.  Pennies per week until it was paid up.  When he died in 1997 they paid out.  It wasn't until about two years ago that we realised that the policy now had to be owned by my mother so we did that.  The only paperwork we had was the actual certificate.  Now we get yearly statements of the pay out rate, it's only approx £2K!  I don't think anymore paperwork is needed.

I hope that others can help with your queries.

spaniel101

Update long overdue.  The first thing to say is thank you all for being my stable sounding board throughout for this...lets say 'unique life experience' and your continued valuable advise.  It is very much appreciated I hope you all know and I also hope you are all keeping well, sound and safe during these extraordinary difficult times, please keep on feeding your soul, because you matter and you are important to this world we live in.

  

After 2 weeks Easter leave, I now feel I am slowly getting my head back together after what can only be described as a turbulent new year for all.

So, here is my long overdue update and of course, another unrelenting question (& another one for the benefits board I think).

The house finally sold last August (after 1 failed sale), for the much more realistic, just under probate value.  By this point my sister I believe was stoney broke given the additional insurance/council tax/solicitors bills which well and truly took their toll for good measure.    A very very happy day arrived for Mum in Nov 2020 and she finally, after 4 1/2years of stress, received her settlement from my father's estate, plus costs of £16K  (we did an extraordinarily happy dance!!!!  and I am so happy for Mum, that I could still shed a tear to this day.  This is the stress of it, falling away.. slowly but surely.  Yes, my sister did some further strange/bizarre psychopathic things towards the end again (the battle is always the bloodiest towards the end!), but we stayed rock steady, just waiting for the home run.   

The months have rolled by, and what have we done....nothing but stare at this bank balance (with a little smile!)....well, & Mum treated us to 2 chinese takeaways, which were lip-smacking delicious might I add !!

Mum has now decided after months of much needed calm, peace and tranquility, that she would like to move house at some point over the next few years.  So, I am set the task of unloading 49 years worth of house, which I can cope with here and there in my 'spare time' given there's is no impending need.  In and amongst all the meditions / counsel / compromise sessions of the case, my father's personal chattels to be frank, were talked and talked around in circles, and back again.   My father didn't list individual items at all in his will specifically in relation to these personal chattels (given he didn't know what he was doing) other than my sister 'sole beneficiary of estate'.   My sister came up with her own list, which consisted of ....everything in my Mum's house.  Ornaments, plates. pictures, watches, coins, trailor, guns (these x 3 went into police storage - but I believe she may have collected them by now, possibly -£1.5K), tv, surround sound, gran's ring, etc, etc.    The personal chattels value sister entered on probate was £3K.   Most of which Mum/solicitors argued were matrimonial property belonging to Mum.   Mum/solicitors argued for the return of Mum's wedding album  (sister had previously broken into Mum's house and stolen).  Mum ended up offering watches/coins/trailor/guns,   in exchange for the album.  This was ignored by sister (as it didn't consist of all she wanted to strip the house bare) so nothing was collected and the album never returned to Mum.  The compromise agreement ended up having a clause in which sister stated, she could issue a claim anytime for the personal chattels against my Mum, Mum had a clause put in her compromise for a potential claim for wedding album against sister, and so it was left at that.

Mum has decided she wants to dispose of most of these items now, is she at liberty to do so and are there any pros and cons in doing this / worst case senario ?.   My take on it is that Mum has had the items as stated throughout her marriage as stipulated over and over, so as far as we are concerned, as Mum initially stated are her own belongings to do with as she wishes and I don't see why not.   I do rather suspect, sister is waiting for Mum's probate in the distant future to issue claim on Mum's estate for these particular chattels (without fear of a retaliation claim for wedding album then from Mum), which clearly could end up being my problem (which mum doesn't want) given sister goes for maximum destruction.   Obviously, it would cost her to do this and probably more than £1.5-£3K.  I could at that point deny any knowledge of their whereabouts - but im the genuine truthful kind one, to my detriment!!   There is absolutely no question of Mum sending them to her - she would sooner throw them in the Mersey!   I'm sure I've read somewhere too of a 2 year limitation or something on chattels and it then being a PET of sisters but hopefully someone might know what this means as I just think im over thinking the whole thing now!.   I don't believe she would have reason for a further claim on them in the future, given such length of time out, especially having already been dragged through the mud and maybe the solicitors know this but they are not going to say at this point.   I'd be very grateful for any advice and / or reassurance anyone could offer on this, and thank you again for reading and listening, please stay with me!