Executors discover evidence of negligent activity of deceased. What to do ?

Fly_Guy

jonesMUFCforever wrote: »

It seems the house has never been registered so there has to be a set of deeds somewhere!
It has been compulsory to register house transfers since the 1980's so the house probably has not changed hands before this.

We know that auntie has been living in the house since the late 1940's, so probably no surprise that its not on the land registry if they only go back to the 1980's. However we also know that it wasn't her's originally but that she may simply have stayed put when the previous owners died. We think that the previous owner (whom she nursed for many years) left everything to auntie. But I can imagine that she may have never formally transferred ownership to herself...

However this is all speculation and we haven't yet found any deeds. However we have found a solicitors business card in her wallet so have renewed hope that maybe they are holding deeds and/or a will for her. We will call them tomorrow.

Fly_Guy

happyandcontented wrote: »

This paragraph tells me you that morally you don't feel you can just walk away.....so, given that, I would take the advice posted by those who say engage a professional to guide you and protect you from inadvertently doing something that will backfire on you.

Yes. Walking away is not an option. And yes, we will absolutely engage professional help to sort this out. Although I suspect it may cost the value of the house [if its hers].

Our thinking at this stage is that we will arrange a funeral, and go through the information gathering and tidying up 'stage 0' that getmore4less described above. We will also try to wrap up or at least freeze her personal affairs (probably via a specialist professional solicitor rather than personally).

Hopefully, any role she may have played as an executor for other people, be that officially or unofficially, will now pass back to other executors / beneficiaries of the estates she dealt with. It would then be up to them appoint replacement executor(s). Once they have someone new in place then we will hand over all the paperwork we can find relating to their estate.

Our hope [possibly naively] is that responsibility for any errors or mistakes that aunty made has died with her. My understanding is that a dead person cannot be prosecuted for mis-deeds committed while alive. It would be cruel indeed if we could somehow be held liable for the mistakes of a dead person when all we have done is try to tidy up and do the right thing.

Fly_Guy

getmore4less wrote: »

If you feel a moral obligation to do something then I think you will have no option but to go through the house to at least secure any valuables and paperwork that may assist with process.

Yes. This is something that we will do. Simply to make the place safe and to restore sanitation, lighting etc. A lot of stuff is just rubbish and of no value and will be thrown out to make space. But documentation will be sorted and boxed up.

getmore4less wrote: »

If there is no will have you worked out who the residual beneficiaries are yet?

if more than one then they need to be engaged, many hands make light work of a house search.

Yes. There are three elderly siblings who would inherit should she have died intestate. One estranged for the last 60+ years. Four nieces/nephews that we know of. One being me. I'm the only one living in the same country.

getmore4less wrote: »

What I would do is engage with a probate specialist(STEP) with the intention to probably hand over administration(to be paid out of the estate) or to use them when needed.
Get guidance on how much they need you to do before they will take on the job.
Also what you can and cannot do or say when dealing with anyone as you want to avoid intermeddling in the early stages untill the solvent status is known.

This sounds like very good advice. And a course of action that we will follow....

getmore4less wrote: »

Are there any other people you could call on to help with the initial sort.
any family members that are time rich?

There are strategies to deal with mountains of what appear to be random paperwork that get an initial sort through done quite quickly.

How old are you kids, could they help?

Yes, our kids could help sorting and a brother (nephew of auntie) could also potentially come across to help too. Maybe we can make it a family get together !

getmore4less wrote: »

Estates can take a long time and that is not a problem if you don't have a lot of time to work on this, another advantage of not rushing is it gives time for the unknowns to send letters to help build the big picture

I suspect that once the initial sweep is done a lot of things will fall into place quite quickly and can be broken down into sub group tasks that can tackled independently.
I do suspect this will need quite a bit of time

This is an excellent point. Once the funeral has been held and the house is secure, with utilities in place, then it can stay as is for as long as needed.

getmore4less wrote: »

You are right not to underestimate the task here it could be very time consuming with the only reward being you did what you felt was right.

I think I would still do what I would call phase 0, which would be an initial pass over everything in the boxing up the paperwork and collecting any valuable and sentimental stuff for safe keeping.

Make a list of what has been found, take photos of stuff before it is moved as a reminder of where things were.

Make contact with the solicitor they worked with.
Engage with a solicitor with a view to them taking on the job.

Review the next step after the initial pass.

Many thanks indeed. These are wise words. We were rather traumatised by the circumstances of her death and by the enormity of the situation we find ourselves in. But given time and the reassurance of professional advice where needed I think this might be doable. And as you said - the knowledge that we at least tried to do the right thing is valuable in itself.

What this absolutely CANNOT do however is have our efforts to tidy up after auntie endanger our own family security/life. As such, ensuring that we do not intermeddle, and having a professional assume the legal liability for dealing with the consequences of the estates she managed is important and something that we will urgently clarify over the coming days.

getmore4less

Fly_Guy wrote: »

Many thanks indeed to you all for your advice. Especially getmore4less. Very much appreciated.

We have appointments tomorrow to register the death, we have found a business card of a local solicitors office in aunties wallet who we will call, and have an appointment with a [different] solicitor to get legal advice. And a joiner is coming round to secure the front door. So hopefully we will have a better grasp of whats going on by the end of tomorrow.




Just to clarify - do you mean notifying people she was dealing with in a professional capacity or do you mean her current account, credit card, gas, water utilities etc ?

When telling the utilities is it ok to set ourselves up to take over paying her accounts or do we let them just cut off supply ?

Given the status of the house is unknown I would just notify of death and let them deal with the administrator.

Anyone can notify others of a death, you do that in your capacity as just a person not as an administrator.

I would notify those that are needed to preserve assets like accounts to get them frozen, most on as needed basis should they communicate your reply is sorry x has died please contact the administrator.

Untill you establish solvency you are just taking it one step at a time and avoiding intermeddling.

getmore4less

One point on sorting out piles of stuff.

This one is often tough.

Don't linger on content of letters or old photo or unexpected content etc.
It is a sorting exercise to categorise and collate later.

No need to order stuff but do keep papers that were together(staples paper clips or in the envelope.
The second pass is to get it chronological.

Make notes of what is in each pile or box
Some will be easy as they will be connected like all the house related, all accounts...

Don't throw out anything because it is old and there may be something new.

Don't throw anything out on first pass, especially if there are a few people on the case.

Put it to one side for review. It is not unknown for an old newspaper to have something hidden in it or an article related to some other docs.

There is no rush to throw out things boxes stacked don't take up a lot of space.
Once you have a bigger picture the throw out boxes can be given a second look.

It will be clear what needs to be looked at more closely sooner that the stuff that can wait.

Assets that need securing/freezing
Debts so you can start counting them

Property that may belong to others probably clients(take legal advice before doing anything with these)

No acts that could be considered acting like an executor like getting utility bills in your names.
I would not even ask for the class F Council tax reduction.

This is purely a sorting and information gathering exercise.

Marcon

Don't rely on 'advice' here, however well meaning. Your first thought was your best thought: get proper legal advice about your position (not hers) before doing anything at all.

Fly_Guy

Marcon wrote: »

Don't rely on 'advice' here, however well meaning. Your first thought was your best thought: get proper legal advice about your position (not hers) before doing anything at all.

Yes this is good advice ! We have an appointment tomorrow to seek initial professional advice on where we stand and what we can do.

The responses here have helped up frame some questions in preparation for this meeting and have been very useful in this regard.

Thank you all.

theoretica

Fly_Guy wrote: »

Our hope [possibly naively] is that responsibility for any errors or mistakes that aunty made has died with her. My understanding is that a dead person cannot be prosecuted for mis-deeds committed while alive. It would be cruel indeed if we could somehow be held liable for the mistakes of a dead person when all we have done is try to tidy up and do the right thing.

While of course she is now personally immune from prosecution and punishment it would also be cruel if someone entitled to compensation or a refund were denied it from the estate.

TBagpuss

She can't be prosecuted, but if she was negligent then her estate may be liable - I think any liability would, like any other kind of debt, have to be dealt with before any assets could be distributed to beneficiaries.

Professional advice is essential, but I think that the cost of a funeral (as long as these are reasonable) are normally the first call on the estate, so if you arrange and pay for a funeral you should be able to eventually reclaim the cost from the estate, however, you need to clarify urgently who much you can do without 'intermeddling' and potentially putting yourselves at risk.

Sea_Shell

I can't offer any advise, but it sounds like a very complicated situation.

I would wonder if she was holding any client money, or supposed to be, (if acting as Executor) and this would be due to the beneficiaries.