Should I fight this PCN?

skins7789

After reading the NEWBIES section, I have questions that I cannot find an answer to. In order to try to retain anonymity, I may be more vague than necessary to get an answer, but here goes.

I am writing for a keeper of a vehicle who received a NTK some time ago, and has been threatened with court action. Despite the ‘my case is different…NO IT ISN’T’ Q&A, the Keeper thinks it may actually be different. Part payment of the PCN was made before any advice was sought. And there are other issues, but I’m reluctant to state what they are here in case this information identifies the keeper.

My questions are, if part payment was made, is this an admission of liability? If so, does that mean that the PCN is un-defendable in court? And does it mean that the PPC does not need to pursue the Driver (if they know who the Driver if they were notified within the time limit) but can continue to pursue the Keeper?

Follow-up question: since providing relevant details needed to receive advice here about what has happened so far could result in a PPC identifying the Keeper, what is the best way to get advice on what to do next (whether the Keeper should go to court or simply pay if going to court is likely to end if a loss)?

Thank you.

waamo

Which ppc and what kind of part payment was made?

Coupon-mad

Going to court with our support has a 99% win rate. Your case too.

Any partial payment could be explained by feeling threatened & intimidated into thinking it was a real parking fine, and worrying about bailiffs etc, and trying to act in good faith to resolve a dispute early on, without any admission.

My questions are, if part payment was made, is this an admission of liability?

Not if you explain it in the defence, as above.

If so, does that mean that the PCN is un-defendable in court?

IMHO, no PPC PCNs are ever un-defendable, there is always an angle to fight.

And does it mean that the PPC does not need to pursue the Driver (if they know who the Driver if they were notified within the time limit) but can continue to pursue the Keeper?

They can only pursue the keeper if they do not have the name and postal address of the driver. And only then, as long as they complied with the POFA in full.

waamo

If it was to say cover an underpayment made then it may not be any kind of admission at all.

skins7789

Thanks for the replies.

Would like to reply to specific parts of posts, like Coupon-mad did, but I don't know how. Sorry. So will cut and paste here with asterisks around the cut and pasted parts. (Any guidance with how to do this properly would be very much appreciated.)

*****Any partial payment could be explained by feeling threatened & intimidated into thinking it was a real parking fine, and worrying about bailiffs etc, and trying to act in good faith to resolve a dispute early on, without any admission.*****

Problem is that email was sent along with payment, notifying PPC of payment and reason for it, which was not these reasons.

*****They can only pursue the keeper if they do not have the name and postal address of the driver. And only then, as long as they complied with the POFA in full.*****

The NTK may have complied with POFA - I haven't gone over it with a fine tooth comb, but it looks like it probably complies. (I can check this and come back.) Also, driver of vehicle was identified promptly. Unfortunately, payment was also made to PPC, and keeper was advised that once payment was made against keeper's name, liability was admitted, so there was no need to contact driver instead and they could continue to pursue keeper.

Is this true?

There are more details that I could provide which will enable those helping to do so more easily and will certainly explain some of the issues raised by Coupon-mad, but I feel sure they will identify keeper's case, because this situation is unusual. Is there any way to provide information to get advice without it being able to be seen by PPCs?

Thank you!

waamo

I think you are going to need to tell us the whole story otherwise this is going to be a game of 20 questions.

Coupon-mad

Is there any way to provide information to get advice without it being able to be seen by PPCs?

No, and certainly NEVER go anywhere near any paid 'appeals company'.

Stay here, show us and tell us the facts. People win pretty much all the time here, and are not silent about explaining their case.

skins7789

Ok.

NTK to keeper sent. Email reply to acknowledge receipt and fact that keeper is in fact keeper. Name and address of driver given. Complaint made about ticket purchased and overstay not much over 10 minutes (so grace period issue here) due to unforeseen circumstances. Notification of £20 paid as gesture of goodwill from keeper and driver. (They were trying to do the right thing but wouldn't pay more.)

Reply from PPC states that they can only deal directly with the driver at this point. They state that keeper confirmed they were not the driver on the day, so PPC cannot deal with keeper's appeal. They say if driver wishes to appeal, they must do so directly within 21 days. PPC also then stated they would remove driver's details from their records.

However, keeper's details not removed, they are continuing to pursue keeper, driver has never been contacted directly. An email about 3 weeks later said keeper's appeal was being processed. Keeper replied that earlier correspondence was not an appeal, which PPC had refused to deal with anyway, and keeper pointed out that PPC admitted they were not the driver yet still was receiving letters stating keeper was liable for charge. Stated that if PPC believed keeper was liable, PPC would have dealt with complaint / appeal.

Next letter stated that time to make appeal had passed and PCN was issued correctly. SAR was made subsequently - poorly I should add - and PPC only said they held name, address and vehicle details. Reply to this requested further information all information held about keeper and car in question, including time it enter and left car park, amount paid at machine and the time. This was ignored. Letters from debt collectors followed, then from legal arm of PPC.

Finally, LCB arrived last week.

First question about the LBC. It states that keeper has 30 days to reply, with a date given as the day payment must be made or reasons for non-payment. Is this true, or is it 14 days? Also, I'm not sure if the letter is compliant with pre-court action protocols (Civil Procedure Rules?). There is a lot of information, but according to the old thread from 2013, things are missing. But because the rules changed in 2017, those missing things might not matter?

I'm not 100% certain what action needs to be taken from here. I know the keeper has to respond to LBC, and later prepare a defence. Not sure of the exact time frame or exactly how to do this, and I have found some of the information a little overwhelming since there is so much of it. Also, this is a little difficult because the documents are obviously not all exactly the same, and things like 'is it 14 days or 30 to reply?' are different between posts and forms.

Thanks for taking the time to help.

skins7789

Also, is it worth sending another SAR request, properly this time? The one that asks for information about, for example, whether data is being processed, countries data is stored in, 3rd parties data was shared with, how long it is stored, etc.

Coupon-mad

No, I think those questions are a waste of time for defending a PPC scam.

The data a person needs is all photos of the car, all letters sent and things like a VRN/payment record from any PDT machine if the case is about a tariff paid/not paid.

waamo

Just to get this straight the keeper has named the driver and the ppc have acknowledged that. Despite this they are continuing to chase the keeper.

Is that correct?