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Help ! UKPC Hospital Parking - Registered Keeper - Defence in court
Garyjb
Posts: 8 Forumite
Hi All
I could really do with some help with this!
I have followed Honey-Bee (and others) who have battled with UKPC over Hospital Parking.
The chances of winning UKPC over Hospital Parking seem to be very low.
I was very sorry to hear that Honey-Bee and other NHS staff have lost out to UKPC over hospital parking charges.
Not sure if I am doomed already but really need to focus on the key arguments ready for my next hearing to defend against them persuing charges as registered keeper.
They have stated they are taking me to court as registered keeper as driver has never been established. The car was inusred by AN Other.
I have already been to small claims court and it was adjourned. I spent 1.5 hours explaining my case and arguments.
I presented 14 arguments (see below) but the case was adjourned as the contract (between the Hospital and UKPC) was for 2012 and the charges were in 2014.
It was adjourned so UKPC could have time to find a valid contract. I thought this was unfair as the case should have used the contract supplied by them. Their fault and not mine!
I suspect they will find the actual contract or find a sentence in it that proves it is 'rolling'.
Defence Statement
Background
Vehicle xxx was purchased my Defendant in Feb 2014 for A N Other.
Defendant was registered keeper but not the main driver or user of the vehicle.
The driver of the vehicle at the time of the parking charges is unknown. A N Other has no recollection of the charges or any correspondance.
During the period of the parking chargers the defendant was working over 100 miles away and was insured on a seperate vehicle.
I have evidence the vehicle was insured by AN OTHER, I was insured on another vehcile and I have timesheets to state I was working 100 miles away.
I am going to get a witness statement supporting the above from AN Other.
I have a copy of the insurance document of AN Other.
As the driver is unknown UKPC have confirmed in their witness statement that they are persuing these charges from the
registered keeper under the POFA Act 2012 schedule 4 page 4 (See Appendix Page 7)
However there are conditions that must be met
for purposes of schedule 4 to apply. The defendant will outline why the claiment is not entitled to claim unpaid parking
charges from the keeper of the vehicle (when driver has not been established) as they have not complied with
A - POFA Act 2012
B - BPA Code of Conduct of which UKPC are a member of
C - Precourt protocol
New point (after reading Honey-Bee case):
There is no letter from the landowner granting your client permission/authority to proceed with legal action in this matter.
As you and your client are well aware, the BPA AOS Code of conduct clause 7.2 stated: "If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken".
Point A: POFA ACT CORRESPONDANCE NOT SENT TO CURRENT ADDRESS
The defendant moved house half way through 2014.
UKPC continued to send correspondance to an old address giving the defendant no oppourtunity to respond. The first the defendant
heard about the parking charges was in Summer 2018 when a letter before claim/claim form arrived at his current
address.
POFA Act page 6 paragraph 4 states the notice must be given by handing it to the keeper or leaving it at a CURRENT address for the keeper.
POFA Act does not specify how a car parking should obtain current address details. The claiment could have obtained current address details for the defendant
by other means eg Electrol Register but continued to us old DVLA information.
The DVLA were informed of the new registered keeper in September 2014. The new keeper was AN Other and a new address was provided to the DVLA and V5C document proves this.
Dispite the change of ownership UKPC continued to pursue the defendant for parking charges AFTER the change of ownership date (ie charge in Nov 2014 - correspondance sent in Jan 2015)
The defendant was not the registered keeper after Sep 2014.
The defendant has never recieved any correspondance from UKPC. The only evidence of this is provided my the claiment which they claim to have sent to the old address .
Point B: BPA CODE OF PRACTICE WAS NOT FOLLOWED BY UKPC - NO NOTICATION LETTER
BPA Code of practice stipulates in 23:4 that a notification letter should be sent to keeper 28 days after notice to keeper
it also states that a final reminder must be sent until at least 14 days after the notifcation letter
You will see that the claiment has provided a copy of the Notice to keeper and final reminder that was apparently sent.
There is no evidence of any Notification Letter being sent.
Point C: MANDATORY SET OF INFORMATION REQUIRED BY POFA WAS NOT APPLIED - NO TIME PERIOD SPECIFIED
No time period was given on the apparent PCN given to driver or left on vehicle. And no time period pritned on the apparent notice for keeper letters
Issue time is present. Time first seen field is blank on PCN.
Point
MANDATORY SET OF INFORMATION REQUIRED BY POFA WAS NOT APPLIED - DOES NOT SPECIFY HOW PCN WAS ISSUED
The apparently sent NTK contradicts the images provided by UKPC. The notice to keepers states ''A parking charge was issued to the Driver at the time''
This is one example and applies to all charges. UKPC provided images of what they claim to be a ticket on the vehicle.
This contradicts what they state on the apparently sent notice to keeper (issued to teh driver)
Claimant has failed to identify whether charge was given to driver or placed on vehicle.
Point E: POFA ACT DOES NOT IDENTIFY CREDITOR
The word 'creditor' does not appear on the PCNs, NTK or Final Reminder.
This is required under POFA Act 2012.
Point F: POFA ACT & BPA CODE OF CONDUCT NOT FOLLOWED - DVLA MISUSED DATA
I have written to the DVLA (and sent £5 postal order) requesting full disclosure of all requests of my data from UKPC.
I suspect as they sent a NTK after change of ownership they used old DVLA data. I will see what DVLA send back.
Point G: POFA ACT & BPA CODE OF CONDUCT NOT FOLLOWED - SIGNAGE NOT ADEQUATE
I have visited the site and took pictures of poorly marked out spaces (faded paint), signs covered in moss and algae (unreadable)
I will also mention there is no signs for disabled people that can be seen whilst sat in vehicle.
They have also put stickers over the signs recently and so there is evidence of tampering.
They have put a sticker over the £60 charge and changed to £80
They have also put a sticker 'MAY' on the bit that states they MAY contact DVLA for Registered Keeper details. I am presuming this used to say 'Will'.
Point H: NO CONTRACT BETWEEN LAND OWNER & UKPC - SEPTEMBER 2012 3 MONTH DURATION
UKPC did not provide evidence of a valid contract as part of their witness statments. They only submitted evidence of a 3 month inital contract from Sept 2012.
The charges were for 2014.
The whole case was adjourned mainly on this point.
I suspect they will find a contract or a sentence that means it is 'rolling'. The solicitors panicked on this and asked for a 10 minute recess (and then an adjournement) on this point.
Point I: HMRC COMPLIANCE - DAMAGES OR CONTRACUTAL SUM NO VAT DETAILS
I read this on another forum:
They have failed to disclose whether charges are contractual sum or damages. One is liable for VAT. One isnt.
The HMRC may see this as an offence.
Point J:BPA NO DISCOUNT ON THE APPARENT NOTICE TO KEEPER
BPA says they need to give a discount on NTK. The discount was £0.00
Point K: PRE ACTION PROTOCOL FOR DEBT CLAIM NOT FOLLOWED - CLAIM FORM PARTICULARS OF CLAIM FORM WRONG
Sparce, no evidence provided, not signed , no signature. included charge on 5th of November after registered keeper had changed.
UKPC have since stated they are not persuing me for this one but why were they allowed to take me to court when the claim form / particulars of claim included this charge and is incorrect.
Surely the whole thing should have stopped - issue me with new claim form / new particulars etc
But no, they took me to small claims court anyway.
I do not think this is a A FAIR EXCHANGE OF INFOMATION
Point L: CHARGES CONTRADICT BETWEEN CONTRACT , PCN , SIGNAGE AND NTK
They sent poor pixelated signage that you could not read.
The contract states charge £100 reduced to £60
The PCNs states charges of £60 reduced to £30
They supplied digital master copies of signage that states charges of £80 reduced to £40
Point M: BPA CODE OF CONDUCT CHARGES NOT FOLLOWED - NOT BASED ON GENUINE PRE ESTIMATE OF LOSS
Need a sentence on this but their charges seem to be unreasonable.
Point N: POFA 2012 ACT - NO EVIDENCE OF WINDCREEN TICKET PROVIDED THEREFORE NOTICE TO KEEPER SHOULD HAVE BEEN SENT WITHIN 14 DAYS
One of the charges - the digital photographs do not show a windscreen ticket.
Therefore the NTK should have been sent within 14 days (and not 28 days)
Even for the others the pictures supplied as evidence are very poor digital / pixelated images which are inconclusive.
Many thanks in advance for any help with this!
Mr X
I could really do with some help with this!
I have followed Honey-Bee (and others) who have battled with UKPC over Hospital Parking.
The chances of winning UKPC over Hospital Parking seem to be very low.
I was very sorry to hear that Honey-Bee and other NHS staff have lost out to UKPC over hospital parking charges.
Not sure if I am doomed already but really need to focus on the key arguments ready for my next hearing to defend against them persuing charges as registered keeper.
They have stated they are taking me to court as registered keeper as driver has never been established. The car was inusred by AN Other.
I have already been to small claims court and it was adjourned. I spent 1.5 hours explaining my case and arguments.
I presented 14 arguments (see below) but the case was adjourned as the contract (between the Hospital and UKPC) was for 2012 and the charges were in 2014.
It was adjourned so UKPC could have time to find a valid contract. I thought this was unfair as the case should have used the contract supplied by them. Their fault and not mine!
I suspect they will find the actual contract or find a sentence in it that proves it is 'rolling'.
Defence Statement
Background
Vehicle xxx was purchased my Defendant in Feb 2014 for A N Other.
Defendant was registered keeper but not the main driver or user of the vehicle.
The driver of the vehicle at the time of the parking charges is unknown. A N Other has no recollection of the charges or any correspondance.
During the period of the parking chargers the defendant was working over 100 miles away and was insured on a seperate vehicle.
I have evidence the vehicle was insured by AN OTHER, I was insured on another vehcile and I have timesheets to state I was working 100 miles away.
I am going to get a witness statement supporting the above from AN Other.
I have a copy of the insurance document of AN Other.
As the driver is unknown UKPC have confirmed in their witness statement that they are persuing these charges from the
registered keeper under the POFA Act 2012 schedule 4 page 4 (See Appendix Page 7)
However there are conditions that must be met
for purposes of schedule 4 to apply. The defendant will outline why the claiment is not entitled to claim unpaid parking
charges from the keeper of the vehicle (when driver has not been established) as they have not complied with
A - POFA Act 2012
B - BPA Code of Conduct of which UKPC are a member of
C - Precourt protocol
New point (after reading Honey-Bee case):
There is no letter from the landowner granting your client permission/authority to proceed with legal action in this matter.
As you and your client are well aware, the BPA AOS Code of conduct clause 7.2 stated: "If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken".
Point A: POFA ACT CORRESPONDANCE NOT SENT TO CURRENT ADDRESS
The defendant moved house half way through 2014.
UKPC continued to send correspondance to an old address giving the defendant no oppourtunity to respond. The first the defendant
heard about the parking charges was in Summer 2018 when a letter before claim/claim form arrived at his current
address.
POFA Act page 6 paragraph 4 states the notice must be given by handing it to the keeper or leaving it at a CURRENT address for the keeper.
POFA Act does not specify how a car parking should obtain current address details. The claiment could have obtained current address details for the defendant
by other means eg Electrol Register but continued to us old DVLA information.
The DVLA were informed of the new registered keeper in September 2014. The new keeper was AN Other and a new address was provided to the DVLA and V5C document proves this.
Dispite the change of ownership UKPC continued to pursue the defendant for parking charges AFTER the change of ownership date (ie charge in Nov 2014 - correspondance sent in Jan 2015)
The defendant was not the registered keeper after Sep 2014.
The defendant has never recieved any correspondance from UKPC. The only evidence of this is provided my the claiment which they claim to have sent to the old address .
Point B: BPA CODE OF PRACTICE WAS NOT FOLLOWED BY UKPC - NO NOTICATION LETTER
BPA Code of practice stipulates in 23:4 that a notification letter should be sent to keeper 28 days after notice to keeper
it also states that a final reminder must be sent until at least 14 days after the notifcation letter
You will see that the claiment has provided a copy of the Notice to keeper and final reminder that was apparently sent.
There is no evidence of any Notification Letter being sent.
Point C: MANDATORY SET OF INFORMATION REQUIRED BY POFA WAS NOT APPLIED - NO TIME PERIOD SPECIFIED
No time period was given on the apparent PCN given to driver or left on vehicle. And no time period pritned on the apparent notice for keeper letters
Issue time is present. Time first seen field is blank on PCN.
Point
MANDATORY SET OF INFORMATION REQUIRED BY POFA WAS NOT APPLIED - DOES NOT SPECIFY HOW PCN WAS ISSUED
The apparently sent NTK contradicts the images provided by UKPC. The notice to keepers states ''A parking charge was issued to the Driver at the time''
This is one example and applies to all charges. UKPC provided images of what they claim to be a ticket on the vehicle.
This contradicts what they state on the apparently sent notice to keeper (issued to teh driver)
Claimant has failed to identify whether charge was given to driver or placed on vehicle.
Point E: POFA ACT DOES NOT IDENTIFY CREDITOR
The word 'creditor' does not appear on the PCNs, NTK or Final Reminder.
This is required under POFA Act 2012.
Point F: POFA ACT & BPA CODE OF CONDUCT NOT FOLLOWED - DVLA MISUSED DATA
I have written to the DVLA (and sent £5 postal order) requesting full disclosure of all requests of my data from UKPC.
I suspect as they sent a NTK after change of ownership they used old DVLA data. I will see what DVLA send back.
Point G: POFA ACT & BPA CODE OF CONDUCT NOT FOLLOWED - SIGNAGE NOT ADEQUATE
I have visited the site and took pictures of poorly marked out spaces (faded paint), signs covered in moss and algae (unreadable)
I will also mention there is no signs for disabled people that can be seen whilst sat in vehicle.
They have also put stickers over the signs recently and so there is evidence of tampering.
They have put a sticker over the £60 charge and changed to £80
They have also put a sticker 'MAY' on the bit that states they MAY contact DVLA for Registered Keeper details. I am presuming this used to say 'Will'.
Point H: NO CONTRACT BETWEEN LAND OWNER & UKPC - SEPTEMBER 2012 3 MONTH DURATION
UKPC did not provide evidence of a valid contract as part of their witness statments. They only submitted evidence of a 3 month inital contract from Sept 2012.
The charges were for 2014.
The whole case was adjourned mainly on this point.
I suspect they will find a contract or a sentence that means it is 'rolling'. The solicitors panicked on this and asked for a 10 minute recess (and then an adjournement) on this point.
Point I: HMRC COMPLIANCE - DAMAGES OR CONTRACUTAL SUM NO VAT DETAILS
I read this on another forum:
They have failed to disclose whether charges are contractual sum or damages. One is liable for VAT. One isnt.
The HMRC may see this as an offence.
Point J:BPA NO DISCOUNT ON THE APPARENT NOTICE TO KEEPER
BPA says they need to give a discount on NTK. The discount was £0.00
Point K: PRE ACTION PROTOCOL FOR DEBT CLAIM NOT FOLLOWED - CLAIM FORM PARTICULARS OF CLAIM FORM WRONG
Sparce, no evidence provided, not signed , no signature. included charge on 5th of November after registered keeper had changed.
UKPC have since stated they are not persuing me for this one but why were they allowed to take me to court when the claim form / particulars of claim included this charge and is incorrect.
Surely the whole thing should have stopped - issue me with new claim form / new particulars etc
But no, they took me to small claims court anyway.
I do not think this is a A FAIR EXCHANGE OF INFOMATION
Point L: CHARGES CONTRADICT BETWEEN CONTRACT , PCN , SIGNAGE AND NTK
They sent poor pixelated signage that you could not read.
The contract states charge £100 reduced to £60
The PCNs states charges of £60 reduced to £30
They supplied digital master copies of signage that states charges of £80 reduced to £40
Point M: BPA CODE OF CONDUCT CHARGES NOT FOLLOWED - NOT BASED ON GENUINE PRE ESTIMATE OF LOSS
Need a sentence on this but their charges seem to be unreasonable.
Point N: POFA 2012 ACT - NO EVIDENCE OF WINDCREEN TICKET PROVIDED THEREFORE NOTICE TO KEEPER SHOULD HAVE BEEN SENT WITHIN 14 DAYS
One of the charges - the digital photographs do not show a windscreen ticket.
Therefore the NTK should have been sent within 14 days (and not 28 days)
Even for the others the pictures supplied as evidence are very poor digital / pixelated images which are inconclusive.
Many thanks in advance for any help with this!
Mr X
0
Comments
-
No idea who Honey Bee is
Which hospital. What has someone supposed to have done to get an invoice. Am I correct that it is from 2014?
How have they managed to get your correct address
When are you due back in court.
Hit them with a SAR for all the information they hold on you. Amongst other things that should reveal how they got your current address
The request to the DVLA is free, ask for your postal order back0 -
must be Honey-Dee not Honey-Bee
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5823752/scs-law-lbc-by-ukpc
read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread too , especially as I have no idea what help you are looking for but this is NOT a legal advice forum, its a counsumer advice forum
Martyn Lewis would tell you to consult a lawyer0 -
The hospital is Ormskirk.
No idea how they got my current address but thank you for the suggestion of hitting them with a SAR. I will do that next.
I am waiting for date but will be March / April 2018 earliest.
I enclosed the postal order as I need to get my defence in within the next 28 days so thought a fiver might persuade the guys at DVLA to process my request quicker!
The Driver (whoever that is) has apparently parked in unmarked bays, on grass etc as there was no ‘real’ parking bays available by the looks of it.
I was kind of hoping someone may have successfully beat UKPC versus Registered Keeper and could direct me to a successful defence I could read and refer to / use some legal points from?0 -
And yes it was Honey-Dee. sorry! Typo!0
-
I doubt that your court date will be last year unless you have a DeLorean ?
attention to detail :- YEAR , name of previous thread member ? 2 major errors already
the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread post #2 has suitable examples of defences, start with the concise one by BARGEPOLE0 -
Apparently they are all for : parking in a prohibited area - on hatches or yellow lines, not parking correctly in a marked bay at the site : 3 of each.0
-
Sorry it’s March / April 2019. Just still getting used to the new year!0
-
Thanks I’ll check out the Bargepole defence. Thank you!0
-
I disagree. All cases are there to be won, unless you get a bad Judge, such as Swansea.The chances of winning UKPC over Hospital Parking seem to be very low.
You've been reading old stuff, cross this out (killed off in 2015 by the Beavis case):
...no, you don't!Point M: BPA CODE OF CONDUCT CHARGES NOT FOLLOWED - NOT BASED ON GENUINE PRE ESTIMATE OF LOSS
Need a sentence on this
Have you found the NHS Car Parking Principles? These regimes breach them.PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
CLICK at the top or bottom of any page where it says:
Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD0 -
I will find them (the NHS Car Parking Principles) and so will have a good read and use that as a defence point. Thank you!0
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