New Build party wall noise issue

katedowling01

I live in a new build flat and have the same issues. I can hear everything from upstairs. I can hear their conversations so clearly that I could actually join in. I have been fighting for nearly 3 years to get a solution but have had no luck.
Bellway (the builders of this development) have been of no use and wont even come out to do testing.
I got in touch with Trinity, our building management company. Our lease contract states that we can't have hard or laminate flooring because of the amount of noise it makes. My neighbors have laminate flooring. I was shocked to hear that it was actually Bellway who had laid the laminate flooring in the property above mine and due to that it doesn't count as a breach of contract!
I don't know what to do next so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

ChrisParkerJones

katedowling01 wrote: »

I live in a new build flat and have the same issues. I can hear everything from upstairs. I can hear their conversations so clearly that I could actually join in. I have been fighting for nearly 3 years to get a solution but have had no luck.
Bellway (the builders of this development) have been of no use and wont even come out to do testing.
I got in touch with Trinity, our building management company. Our lease contract states that we can't have hard or laminate flooring because of the amount of noise it makes. My neighbors have laminate flooring. I was shocked to hear that it was actually Bellway who had laid the laminate flooring in the property above mine and due to that it doesn't count as a breach of contract!
I don't know what to do next so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I find this very odd that they say you can't have laminate flooring...

I think what they're referring to is its effect on 'impact sound'. Impact sound is basically noise from footsteps, chair scrapes, dropping objects, on the floor above, anything that physically impacts the floor, transmitting vibration into the floor, which radiates noise into the room below. Carpet is good for impact sound, because it is soft and compressible, this dampens some of the impact, therefore dampening noise/vibration. Laminate flooring is the opposite, it is hard, rigid, not good at dampening vibration. Imagine hammering a bit of wood, then hammering a bit of carpet, there's an obvious difference in noise.

So lay down some carpet right? Avoid laminate? Well no... we're always going to have some hard flooring around in the house, i.e. the bathroom, or the kitchen. Or perhaps you move in somewhere with carpet and decide you want laminate flooring instead.

It's for this reason that the Building Regulations build in a safety guard against this. For a bit of background, acoustic tests need to be done across party floors for any new builds (or conversions), to demonstrate that there is a certain level of impact noise reduction, and airborne noise reduction (the latter is things like conversations, TV, music...). So back to the impact noise, this testing is conducted with a little machine called a 'tapping machine'. This has a bunch of pneumatic weight type parts that repeatedly hammer on top of the floor, they then measure noise levels in the room below.

The reason I explain this is that the Building Regs say that this test must be done without the floor finish, unless that floor finish is built-in/integral to the floor and cannot be changed. So whether the floor is carpet or laminate makes no difference to the test result, because they effectively have to use the tapping machine directly on top of the floorboard, which would fail. For this reason, nearly all new builds have what's called a resilient underlay. This is a thin layer of rubber type material that sits on top of the floorboards. It is not to be mistaken for carpet underlay, it's something that is fixed in, and purposely there to mitigate impact sound.

So it sounds like they've not bothered doing this, probably to save cost, which is pretty bad. Perhaps this is why they've said you can't have laminate flooring, they've somehow argued that the carpet is integral to the floor and cannot be changed, so that they could do the test on top of the carpet to get a pass, knowing that if they allowed you to change it laminate, it would fail. I'm not sure what the legalities of this are to be honest, I could do a bit of research if you like. All in all, it's pretty underhand.

Perhaps in the flat above, Bellway had to do the laminate flooring, because they realised they would also have to retrospectively add this resilient layer. But it doesn't sound like you've had much success, perhaps they haven't done it... and this is why they're reluctant to re-test. It also sounds like you have issues with airborne sound (you said you can understand conversations). So who knows what else is wrong with this floor...

What they should be able to provide you, is a copy of the sound testing report/certificates. However, the Building Regs state that only 1 'set' of tests is required for every 10 flats (which are the same layout). Hence they might not have tested your actual flat, they could've tested ones around it. So theoretically, there could be some strategical testing where they've used a better construction where they know they will test, and then saved cost elsewhere. To be fair, I wouldn't imagine that they have done that... but just putting it out there. In short, get a copy of the sound testing report in the first instance. This should have been provided when you bought the house, as if you sell on the house, it's well within the buyers right to ask the seller to present this information.

[Text Removed]

All the best
Chris

katedowling01

ChrisParkerJones said:

katedowling01 wrote: »

I live in a new build flat and have the same issues. I can hear everything from upstairs. I can hear their conversations so clearly that I could actually join in. I have been fighting for nearly 3 years to get a solution but have had no luck.
Bellway (the builders of this development) have been of no use and wont even come out to do testing.
I got in touch with Trinity, our building management company. Our lease contract states that we can't have hard or laminate flooring because of the amount of noise it makes. My neighbors have laminate flooring. I was shocked to hear that it was actually Bellway who had laid the laminate flooring in the property above mine and due to that it doesn't count as a breach of contract!
I don't know what to do next so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I find this very odd that they say you can't have laminate flooring...

I think what they're referring to is its effect on 'impact sound'. Impact sound is basically noise from footsteps, chair scrapes, dropping objects, on the floor above, anything that physically impacts the floor, transmitting vibration into the floor, which radiates noise into the room below. Carpet is good for impact sound, because it is soft and compressible, this dampens some of the impact, therefore dampening noise/vibration. Laminate flooring is the opposite, it is hard, rigid, not good at dampening vibration. Imagine hammering a bit of wood, then hammering a bit of carpet, there's an obvious difference in noise.

So lay down some carpet right? Avoid laminate? Well no... we're always going to have some hard flooring around in the house, i.e. the bathroom, or the kitchen. Or perhaps you move in somewhere with carpet and decide you want laminate flooring instead.

It's for this reason that the Building Regulations build in a safety guard against this. For a bit of background, acoustic tests need to be done across party floors for any new builds (or conversions), to demonstrate that there is a certain level of impact noise reduction, and airborne noise reduction (the latter is things like conversations, TV, music...). So back to the impact noise, this testing is conducted with a little machine called a 'tapping machine'. This has a bunch of pneumatic weight type parts that repeatedly hammer on top of the floor, they then measure noise levels in the room below.

The reason I explain this is that the Building Regs say that this test must be done without the floor finish, unless that floor finish is built-in/integral to the floor and cannot be changed. So whether the floor is carpet or laminate makes no difference to the test result, because they effectively have to use the tapping machine directly on top of the floorboard, which would fail. For this reason, nearly all new builds have what's called a resilient underlay. This is a thin layer of rubber type material that sits on top of the floorboards. It is not to be mistaken for carpet underlay, it's something that is fixed in, and purposely there to mitigate impact sound.

So it sounds like they've not bothered doing this, probably to save cost, which is pretty bad. Perhaps this is why they've said you can't have laminate flooring, they've somehow argued that the carpet is integral to the floor and cannot be changed, so that they could do the test on top of the carpet to get a pass, knowing that if they allowed you to change it laminate, it would fail. I'm not sure what the legalities of this are to be honest, I could do a bit of research if you like. All in all, it's pretty underhand.

Perhaps in the flat above, Bellway had to do the laminate flooring, because they realised they would also have to retrospectively add this resilient layer. But it doesn't sound like you've had much success, perhaps they haven't done it... and this is why they're reluctant to re-test. It also sounds like you have issues with airborne sound (you said you can understand conversations). So who knows what else is wrong with this floor...

What they should be able to provide you, is a copy of the sound testing report/certificates. However, the Building Regs state that only 1 'set' of tests is required for every 10 flats (which are the same layout). Hence they might not have tested your actual flat, they could've tested ones around it. So theoretically, there could be some strategical testing where they've used a better construction where they know they will test, and then saved cost elsewhere. To be fair, I wouldn't imagine that they have done that... but just putting it out there. In short, get a copy of the sound testing report in the first instance. This should have been provided when you bought the house, as if you sell on the house, it's well within the buyers right to ask the seller to present this information.

[Text Removed]

All the best
Chris

Thank you, Chris for your response. 
When I got the keys to the flat there was a grey rubber material laid and nothing else (I had opted to do my own flooring). 
After months of trying to get something out of Bellway they have said: 

'We build our plots to a standard called “Robust Details”. This is a pre-tested detail which if you built to will meet building regulations. This plot was built to robust detail E-FC-1.'

Again, not particularly helpful and the way that they have worded it makes it sound like they haven't done the tests. I have gone back to them asking for a copy of the sound testing report but wont get my hopes up.

A couple of weeks back I could hear my upstairs neighbours painting their walls. Surely thats not right?!

ComicGeek

katedowling01 said:

ChrisParkerJones said:

katedowling01 wrote: »

I live in a new build flat and have the same issues. I can hear everything from upstairs. I can hear their conversations so clearly that I could actually join in. I have been fighting for nearly 3 years to get a solution but have had no luck.
Bellway (the builders of this development) have been of no use and wont even come out to do testing.
I got in touch with Trinity, our building management company. Our lease contract states that we can't have hard or laminate flooring because of the amount of noise it makes. My neighbors have laminate flooring. I was shocked to hear that it was actually Bellway who had laid the laminate flooring in the property above mine and due to that it doesn't count as a breach of contract!
I don't know what to do next so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I find this very odd that they say you can't have laminate flooring...

I think what they're referring to is its effect on 'impact sound'. Impact sound is basically noise from footsteps, chair scrapes, dropping objects, on the floor above, anything that physically impacts the floor, transmitting vibration into the floor, which radiates noise into the room below. Carpet is good for impact sound, because it is soft and compressible, this dampens some of the impact, therefore dampening noise/vibration. Laminate flooring is the opposite, it is hard, rigid, not good at dampening vibration. Imagine hammering a bit of wood, then hammering a bit of carpet, there's an obvious difference in noise.

So lay down some carpet right? Avoid laminate? Well no... we're always going to have some hard flooring around in the house, i.e. the bathroom, or the kitchen. Or perhaps you move in somewhere with carpet and decide you want laminate flooring instead.

It's for this reason that the Building Regulations build in a safety guard against this. For a bit of background, acoustic tests need to be done across party floors for any new builds (or conversions), to demonstrate that there is a certain level of impact noise reduction, and airborne noise reduction (the latter is things like conversations, TV, music...). So back to the impact noise, this testing is conducted with a little machine called a 'tapping machine'. This has a bunch of pneumatic weight type parts that repeatedly hammer on top of the floor, they then measure noise levels in the room below.

The reason I explain this is that the Building Regs say that this test must be done without the floor finish, unless that floor finish is built-in/integral to the floor and cannot be changed. So whether the floor is carpet or laminate makes no difference to the test result, because they effectively have to use the tapping machine directly on top of the floorboard, which would fail. For this reason, nearly all new builds have what's called a resilient underlay. This is a thin layer of rubber type material that sits on top of the floorboards. It is not to be mistaken for carpet underlay, it's something that is fixed in, and purposely there to mitigate impact sound.

So it sounds like they've not bothered doing this, probably to save cost, which is pretty bad. Perhaps this is why they've said you can't have laminate flooring, they've somehow argued that the carpet is integral to the floor and cannot be changed, so that they could do the test on top of the carpet to get a pass, knowing that if they allowed you to change it laminate, it would fail. I'm not sure what the legalities of this are to be honest, I could do a bit of research if you like. All in all, it's pretty underhand.

Perhaps in the flat above, Bellway had to do the laminate flooring, because they realised they would also have to retrospectively add this resilient layer. But it doesn't sound like you've had much success, perhaps they haven't done it... and this is why they're reluctant to re-test. It also sounds like you have issues with airborne sound (you said you can understand conversations). So who knows what else is wrong with this floor...

What they should be able to provide you, is a copy of the sound testing report/certificates. However, the Building Regs state that only 1 'set' of tests is required for every 10 flats (which are the same layout). Hence they might not have tested your actual flat, they could've tested ones around it. So theoretically, there could be some strategical testing where they've used a better construction where they know they will test, and then saved cost elsewhere. To be fair, I wouldn't imagine that they have done that... but just putting it out there. In short, get a copy of the sound testing report in the first instance. This should have been provided when you bought the house, as if you sell on the house, it's well within the buyers right to ask the seller to present this information.

[Text Removed]

All the best
Chris

Thank you, Chris for your response. 
When I got the keys to the flat there was a grey rubber material laid and nothing else (I had opted to do my own flooring). 
After months of trying to get something out of Bellway they have said: 

'We build our plots to a standard called “Robust Details”. This is a pre-tested detail which if you built to will meet building regulations. This plot was built to robust detail E-FC-1.'

Again, not particularly helpful and the way that they have worded it makes it sound like they haven't done the tests. I have gone back to them asking for a copy of the sound testing report but wont get my hopes up.

A couple of weeks back I could hear my upstairs neighbours painting their walls. Surely thats not right?!

If they've used Robust Details then there aren't any sound tests conducted. Here is the E-FC-1 detail on the Robust Detail website, it shows how it's built https://www.robustdetails.com/patterns/selecting-your-robust-details/concrete-floors-for-loadbearing-masonry/e-fc-1/#2634

I would say, as expected from Bellway, that they have done the absolute minimum that they have to under Bldg Regs, as this gives the poorest sound insulation performance permitted but with the smallest depth so that they can squeeze another storey on top.... 

Kathyjj

Hi, experiencing these problems now, new build semi, glasses shaking in the kitchen, neighbour can hear our tv word for word on normal volume but we don't hear theirs. They can hear us washing up and putting things away, they can hear us using our blender and have knocked on and told us its waking up the baby We put down tiles, they have carpet. We are worried about moving around inside for fear of waking their baby! Is this right Chris can you help? Kitchen vibrates when walking across the floor. We have been in three years, just had the boiler serviced to be told its wasn't sealed in, the engineer checked the flue and found a huge hole to outside  
2 weeks prior we noticed the windows hadn't been sealed in and there were large gaps at the bottom of the master bedroom window and also the kitchen window. They did send people to rectify both these problems and both tradesman said the work should have never been passed.

We have bought a huge piece of acoustic foam to put over our bedroom window at night as we can't sleep through the noise of next-door talking (with window closed) 
I haven't been up in the loft to check that as yet!
We are feeling very unconfident and wandering what we are going to find next. Is this normal? is it because I put tiles?
Can somebody help please 

robatwork

Kathyjj said:

We have bought a huge piece of acoustic foam to put over our bedroom window at night as we can't sleep through the noise of next-door talking (with window closed) 
I haven't been up in the loft to check that as yet!
We are feeling very unconfident and wandering what we are going to find next. Is this normal? is it because I put tiles?
Can somebody help please 

Hello Kathy,
I can't help directly but can offer my sympathies and also a couple of bits of info about the forum.
Firstly you're better off posting on a new thread of your own.

Also, Chris who you seek help from hasn't been on here since January:

but as he has a fairly specific ID you may want to google him if you like the look of his advice.

Good luck

RelievedSheff

Kathyjj said:

Hi, experiencing these problems now, new build semi, glasses shaking in the kitchen, neighbour can hear our tv word for word on normal volume but we don't hear theirs. They can hear us washing up and putting things away, they can hear us using our blender and have knocked on and told us its waking up the baby We put down tiles, they have carpet. We are worried about moving around inside for fear of waking their baby! Is this right Chris can you help? Kitchen vibrates when walking across the floor. We have been in three years, just had the boiler serviced to be told its wasn't sealed in, the engineer checked the flue and found a huge hole to outside  
2 weeks prior we noticed the windows hadn't been sealed in and there were large gaps at the bottom of the master bedroom window and also the kitchen window. They did send people to rectify both these problems and both tradesman said the work should have never been passed.

We have bought a huge piece of acoustic foam to put over our bedroom window at night as we can't sleep through the noise of next-door talking (with window closed) 
I haven't been up in the loft to check that as yet!
We are feeling very unconfident and wandering what we are going to find next. Is this normal? is it because I put tiles?
Can somebody help please 

You say you have been in the house for three years.

Have these noise transmission problems been ongoing since you moved in or has something changed in those three years and the noise transmission has gotten worse?