Incorrect time on Parking Charge Notice

LennyG

Hi all,

I have received a PCN from CPM Ltd stating that my vehicle was illegally parked in a pub car park.
The time that they state the vehicle as being there is an hour out (13:00 rather than 12:00).
It is unclear from the two thumbnail type photos as to what time the vehicle entered/left the car park as the print is minuscule (although it was not at the time stated in the letter). There is no way of viewing larger versions of this photographic evidence as they do not have it on a website as is normally the case.
Do I bother paying this or just ignore it?
I did look at their appeals process but it has to be done in writing and the only address they provide is a PO Box for posted payments.
I also tried calling their customer services number a few times but it either rings out or goes to voicemail.

Thanks in advance

Lenny

Umkomaas

Do I bother paying this or just ignore it?

Neither - unless you choose to do so. If the latter, you need to know what you're doing and the potential consequences of doing so - not something we would recommend.

I also tried calling their customer services number a few times but it either rings out or goes to voicemail.

What were you hoping for? Compassion, understanding, sympathy ....... or the opportunity to blow your own toes off with loaded gun questions they would ask you? You've had a lucky escape - not something to complain about!

If you go to the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1, it will explain the game you've now been dragged into and how you deal with it - but be warned it isn't easy or quick, not unless you can get the pub involved in having it cancelled. Go and see the manager.

LennyG

Hi Umkomaas,

Are the potential consequences not just the slim chance of being dragged to court where, if I were to lose, I would be given 28 days to pay the original £100?

Wasn't looking for anything as unlikely as compassion just a copy of the evidence and clarification on who and where an appeal should be posted to or preferably an email address.

Think a chat with the manager will be forthcoming though, hadn't even thought of that so thanks.

Umkomaas

Are the potential consequences not just the slim chance of being dragged to court where, if I were to lose, I would be given 28 days to pay the original £100?

The chances with UKCPM are no longer 'slim', they are now 'very likely', UKCPM currently being the most litigious parking operator in the country.

And it's not a simple case of just rocking up at court, giving UKCPM both barrels of a blast from you and expecting the Judge to be sympathetic. There is a shed full of work to do, over 3-4 months before the hearing, in order for you to get yourself in a position of defending yourself successfully (have a look at the court cases on the first few pages of the forum running to 150+ posts to get a feel for 'going to court).

Likely cost of a loss at court (and to be paid within a month) £175-£200.

Wasn't looking for anything as unlikely as compassion

Sorry, that's my dry sense of humour! But in all seriousness, we never advise anyone to phone a PPC (or debt collector) as, at best, you will be on the wrong end of a somewhat abusive phone call, and at worst you will end up providing them with (recorded) evidence they will use against you in court.

Fruitcake

Were the images taken from a hand held camera or ANPR camera on a pole?

Either way you should be complaining to the pub landlord/manager/brewery CEO, as well as complaining to the DVLA that the timestamps are incorrect.
Another parking scammer was caught doctoring time stamps on their photo "evidence".

Do you have any proof the car was elsewhere at the time of the alleged event? Some smartphones and built in car GPS have location history.

Please also complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

LennyG

Hi Umkomaas,
Okay I thought that these people relied on the threat of court action/debt collectors rather than the actual reality of such. Seems I was wrong:(

Should I be printing and posting (no online or email appeals) the template letter from the Newbie FAQ's? If so should I also ask for details about proof of accuracy of the timestamps (looks to me that they didn't put them back an hour in the autumn:-()

Fruitcake,
Pole mounted somewhere on site.
Having looked at the pub's website they seem to have had problems with unsavoury behaviour happening in the car park and the police have insisted that they ensure only patrons use it, fair enough.
They do state on the website though that there is no turning allowed, no signs whatsoever at the entrance to state this though.

My phone does show that I was 3.6 miles away 17 minutes before they say the car left the car park after already being there for whatever the grace period may be. I was at my home address 1.2 miles away 8 minutes after they say the vehicle left which, despite not being how things were, would be possible. My phone shows me arriving home "via" a 24 minute drive which I guess is evidence that I didn't stop anywhere. At least not for any longer than a minute.
As the photo's are so small I have no idea what time they are showing as the vehicles entry to the car park so I have no idea how long they are saying the car was there for.

Umkomaas

Should I be printing and posting (no online or email appeals) the template letter from the Newbie FAQ's?

Yes, of course, then follow exactly the PPC's instructions for submission.

From their website:

On the reverse of each parking ticket, CPM outline in detail the appeals procedure which must be followed if a challenge is to be made. Every appeal is assessed on an individual basis by a dedicated Appeals Department to ensure a quick response, within 14 to 35 days. Our highly trained adjudicators will base their decision on factual evidence, in the majority of cases this comes in the form of time stamped photographic evidence collected at the time of contravention.

All appeals must be made in writing and sent to:

Appeals Department
UK CPM
PO Box 3114
Lancing
BN15 5BR

If so should I also ask for details about proof of accuracy of the timestamps (looks to me that they didn't put them back an hour in the autumn:-()

Unlikely to make a blind bit of difference, they don't read appeals, they just reject them. And you're in danger of blowing some of your toes off in the process on Keeper Liability. The template - as is - is tightly worded to avoid that.

We don't recommend any further appeal beyond the initial appeal to the IAS, but if you can get all your ducks in a row with clearly evidenced facts and exhibits, this may be a case worth throwing at the IAS and see what they make of it.

LennyG

Thanks Umkomaas.

The reverse of the ticket fails to mention where appeals should be sent. There is also no mention of their website URL.

LennyG

Okay so I appealed the ticket with the template from the newbies thread.
As expected I received the standard "your appeal has been unsuccessful" letter.

They have included further information in this letter in the form of a picture of the sign that they purport to have been on display on that site.
The sign pictured is for a pay and display machine that you would enter your registration number into.
This is not what is there.

Anyway, I decided to appeal via the IAS site, yes I know it will most likely be a waste of time but I did it at work so it wasn't my time.

UK CPM have just responded to my appeal stating the usual "Appellant was the keeper" etc..
They have then stated that the car was on site for 8 minutes which is long enough to form a contract.
They have also quoted the actual signage saying that the car park is free for patrons of the pub who enter their registrations into a kiosk in the pub.

I am going to go back to them but just wanted a bit of input.
They have sent me a ticket from a ANPR camera that was out by an hour.
8 minutes isn't long enough to form a contract.
I don't believe that the signs (either the correct ones or their pay and display ones) were present on the day in question as they are on a fence that had only recently been erected.
I can prove via information on my phone that the vehicle was moving at the time they say it was parked (can't prove where it was just that it wasn't stationary for any real time).

Anything I should add or omit?

Thanks

Coupon-mad

Add everything you can, and I hope you've evidenced it all, not just said it?

Not 'I can prove' - you had to actually prove (upload all the evidence, photos, phone info, the lot) when doing the IAS appeal.

It gave you one shot, and it's not just words, it's evidence. If you lose, ignore them.

Anyway, I decided to appeal via the IAS site, yes I know it will most likely be a waste of time but I did it at work so it wasn't my time.

It's not about the time.

It's about the fact you will almost certainly lose, and feel pressured and on the back foot.