pension pay out and benefits

olivia84

Hi,


Hoping someone can offer some advice.....My dad is 60 years old and in receipt of the following benefits and income:


Monthly

Housing benefit £ 490.00
PIP £ 468.00
ESA £ 625.00 (£312.50 per fortnight)
Personal Pension £ 95.00
£1678.00


My word, it looks so much written down (more than my full time wage anyway)....His basic outgoings are:


Monthly:

Rent £ 635.00
council tax £ 19.00
sky TV £ 80.00
debts £ 40.00
TV Licence £ 13.00
Life Insurance £ 20.00
car payment £ 228.00
mobile £ 12.00
Cleaner £ 20.00

£1127.00


My dad is an alcoholic and has many conditions as a result of his alcoholism. The sky Tv is in my name. He never goes out and all he does is watch TV and drink so I really couldn't take this from him. I also can't take his cleaner away from him....he really couldn't keep his house himself and I'm thinking that it is things like this his PIP is for? The car payment: the car is my brother's car (in my name! my dad pays it...NIGHTMARE!)



Forgot to say; He lives in England, I live in Scotland so can only do things from up here. I have a sister near him who helps alot. She works full time but gets him shopping, visits alot and sorts his medication out for him on a sunday. The figures above look absolutely fine; however, he has had a change of circumstances.


My dad was given a total of £40,102 of a pension payout in September. He has not yet informed the relevant benefit agencies. I am so worried. He has technically been convicted of benefit fraud before (it was to do with the £95 per month pension he receives. DWP say they weren't aware of it, my dad says he told them - probably didn't but he's adamant he did. bottom line was, he was fined £800 and was told he owed them £4000 in overpayment. This has all been paid back now but he has been technically convicted of benefit fraud before) He has been burying his head in the sand about telling the benefits agencies about this money. He really is kidding himself.....the pension company only traced him to give him the money in the first place by contacting the DWP for his details....he was given a bloomin tax rebate on the money so HMRC know about it....it's just a mess. Anyway, I have finally convinced him to inform them of this money and declare it to them rather than break the law again (thank god)


Buuuuut.....he now has nothing left. He has blown the lot in the last 2 months. Long story: my brother has a drug problem and my dad has paid for rehab for him from this money. he has also paid some debts to drug dealers and an overdraught for him. He has also lent a friend of him some money who has a gambling problem (oh my god this is looking worse and worse the more I write!) and he has given my sister (who does help out alot) money for her new house. The money is all gone now and he has nothing to show for it. The main thing he cares about is my brother being ok (if it works).



Anyways....my question (eventually!) What will happen when I delcare this money to the benefits agencies?? Do they stop his benefits completely? I know there used to be a threshold to what savings you were allowed and I'm sure I heard you were allowed to gift some but have no idea about figures. I know it's not their problem that he has no money now but I was hoping that what would happen was: we tell them; they work out what he should be entitled to and they reduce his benefits to cover the lump sum he received.


If anyone has any advice or can let me know what the procedure is these days, I would be so grateful. I don't want him to get into deep trouble about this. He's already 3 months late in telling them, however, he has had a couple of hospital admissions in that time which I was hoping to use as the reason he has taken so long to tell them. It would also be a nightmare if they stopped his benefits completely as he has no money at all now. I think his PIP might be exempt though?


Sorry for the extremely long post but wanted to give a bit of background. I am so worried.


Many Thanks

poppy12345

The savings limit is £16,000 once you hit that amount then all your means tested benefits stop. He'll have an overpayment of 3 months that will need to be repaid. Also because he's spent all of the £40,000 then he could still be classed as having it because deprivation of capital could be an issue here. He really does need to report that money Monday morning.

Alice_Holt

Is the ESA income based or contribution-based?

PIP will continue to be paid. Any Contribution-based ESA will also continue to be paid.

Housing Benefit, Income-Based ESA, and Council Tax reduction are means tested benefits. Capital over £16k stops eligibility to these benefits (as poopy has said).
Since "he has blown the lot in the last 2 months", both the DWP the his LA are likely to apply the rule of notional capital. In essence, they will assess his means tested benefits as if he still had the money, i.e as if he had not blown it and still had it.

http://england.shelter.org.uk/legal/benefits/housing_benefit/calculation_of_housing_benefit/capital_and_income

See the para on Notional Capital.

worried_jim

Crikey! I need to give up work and start drinking.

olivia84

:rotfl:defo worriedjim... you sound like my husband :rotfl:it is a shocking amount of money to receive every month. however, I wouldn't swap his life. He's bored and lonely and desparate for people to like him. This is why he has given away all this money; he thinks people will like him and spend time with him if he pays them. It's a shame really. And frustrating; because, when he has a quarter of this coming in I know it'll be me keeping a roof over his head and buying his whisky; not my sister and brother. the drink has wrecked him. my mother died at 60 in January (they had been divorced for 30 years) and my step dad last november at 64 and they were both lifestyle related. This is why I'm teetotal. Anyways, off topic.... Thanks for the replies re; figures. Alice: I am really unsure about the ESA. He was on income support until a last year and was transferred to ESA. I'm thinking it is not contribution based. Yes, I understand that even though he has given away all the money, the benefits agencies won't take this into consideration, so it will be as if he still has it all. Does anyone know if you are allowed to gift any at all? Also, when would his benefits be reinstated? and woud he be re-assessed for them?


Thanks again


x

poppy12345

olivia84 wrote: »

He was on income support until a last year and was transferred to ESA. I'm thinking it is not contribution based.

x

You're most probably correct, sounds like he's receiving Income Based.

tacpot12

Most of the ways in which he has spent the money will not be acceptable; paying for your bother's rehab will be seen as giving a third-party money on behalf of your bother, repaying debts that are not legally enforceable, paying debts that are not due (e.g. the overdraft), lending (giving) money to friends are all unacceptable methods of using capital sums when claiming means-tested benefits, so he will have trouble arguing that he hasn't deliberately deprived himself of the money.

worried_jim

olivia84 wrote: »

:rotfl:defo worriedjim... you sound like my husband :rotfl:it is a shocking amount of money to receive every month. however, I wouldn't swap his life. He's bored and lonely and desparate for people to like him. This is why he has given away all this money; he thinks people will like him and spend time with him if he pays them. It's a shame really. And frustrating; because, when he has a quarter of this coming in I know it'll be me keeping a roof over his head and buying his whisky; not my sister and brother. the drink has wrecked him. my mother died at 60 in January (they had been divorced for 30 years) and my step dad last november at 64 and they were both lifestyle related. This is why I'm teetotal. Anyways, off topic.... Thanks for the replies re; figures. Alice: I am really unsure about the ESA. He was on income support until a last year and was transferred to ESA. I'm thinking it is not contribution based. Yes, I understand that even though he has given away all the money, the benefits agencies won't take this into consideration, so it will be as if he still has it all. Does anyone know if you are allowed to gift any at all? Also, when would his benefits be reinstated? and woud he be re-assessed for them?


Thanks again


x

All the best in getting this sorted and I hope 2019 brings you some sunshine, clearly you are due some. Jim. X.

Alice_Holt

His only (very slim) hope would to challenge a notional capital decision on the grounds that:
a) the intention was not to spend the money to remain on Income based benefits, but
b) he spend the money because his condition renders him incapable of making sensible life decisions,
c) his motivation was to mend fences with family members etc, etc.

Could he manage to get himself to an advice agency / attend appointments / open and respond to letters, etc in order to make an appeal?

As poppy said ESA is likely to be Income Based - so that will stop.

Notional capital is reduced (I recall) by the previous benefits paid but now lost - so about £1k a month. Two years to get from £40k to below £16k when they can resume (at a reduced rate, due to assumed tariff income).

A thought - since he is clearly incapable of handling money, and you are not close enough to act as financial appointee, it may be worth seeing if his local council can assume control of his finances.
https://www.peoplefirstinfo.org.uk/money-and-legal/looking-after-someones-affairs/appointeeship-and-deputyship/
That might be a way of helping him keep a roof over his head, with payments made directly to the landlord.

pmlindyloo

I agree with Alice that to challenge notional capital decision he is going to need some help from the professionals.

Deprivation of capital is about spending/giving away money in order to get benefit or maintain benefit.

To prove that this was not your father's intention you are going to have to show that he was mentally incapable of making decisions, either about declaring the money or making irrational decisions with the money he 'gave away'/used.

Since he claims PIP (at what levels) I presume he has some medical evidence to prove his daily living needs. It might be worth looking at his award letter and seeing which descriptors he met and whether these would provide evidence of his being incapable of making 'normal decisions'.

Also, applying to be his appointee is a good step to take for the same reasons.

If he gave money to your sister can this be recouped? What about the money he 'lent'? Can this be recouped too?

You need to plan for the future if his benefits stop completely. He has his private pension and his PIP - both of these will be unaffected. However, the car payment should stop - sell it? - not sure of the situation here.

Also get help with his debts. Contact Stepchange. He may be eligible for a Debt Relief Order although I am unsure whether deprivation of capital comes into play for this kind of debt relief and makes a DRO not a possibility. However, Stepchange will be able to help. (Google for their website)

Let us know how you get on and good luck!

olivia84

Thank you so much for the replies. I will look into the possibility of challenging the notional capital thing. When I was talking to him last night, he agreed to let me have power of attorney for him so as I would be able to speak to people like the benefits agencies for him, but obviously this would take time to sort out and we need to declare this ASAP.

Ref the car: well that was another thing he did for my brother to try to buy his love! Although the finance is in my name, my dad pays it to me then up until recently my brother has been giving my dad £150 per month towards it, but that has not happened since June because of his drug problems. The finance ends in October for this. That's a right mess because although the finance is in my name, the car is registered to my brother, so selling it wouldn't be an option I don't think. Its such a mess. Because of the drink my dad can be difficult and I feel my brother and sister have taken this money as if they're owed it somehow for putting up with his carry on. Which I get, but I know it'll be me who has to deal with it.

Me and my husband are OK for money. We were able to pay our £70,000 mortgage off with money my mum left me, we have no debt, no kids, I work full time and my husband does OK being self employed and we have a little savings.... So I wouldn't let my dad be homeless or starve, but there's a limit to what my husband will put up with when the rest of my dad's kids benefited from this money that we might have to help pay back. I also have another brother who takes nothing to do with him.

Thanks again. I will call the relevant agencies tomorrow. It's so difficult because I'm up here and he's down there. What I might do is call them and put my dad on speaker on the mobile to authorise me to speak to them. I think I might have done this before. He has £2000 left and rent isn't due until the end of February now. He also has 9 bottles of whisky :rotfl: from some deal the local shop keeper did him so he has a little time before things get desperate.

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