What would you do? - Dangerous chimney removal.

chunkytfg

Okay so the house we are buying appears to have had the Chimney removed from the main living space but is still in the loft. It is a Split design so had 2 flues that rejoined in the loft space just below the ridge of the roof.

As far as we can see it is not supported correctly but is in fact being supported by wedges of random bits of wood on the rafters. This obviously is not correct and as much as it looks to have been like that for many years(20+) it isn't exactly the safest way of doing it!!

So the question is do we remove it or do we support it?

My understanding is that to remove it we need to go down the party wall route getting a party wall surveyor to draw up an agreement etc and then assuming the other party agrees we can remove it.

The other option is to get the Chimney supported. Having a read through my local councils planning regs they don't approve Gallows brackets so it would need to be supported with proper steels which would need to be planned with a Structural engineer.

The FIL is a builder and has said he is happy to do the work for us with just us paying for the materials so the labour aspect of it isn't something to consider.

What would you do and what do you think the difference in the costs would be? We are North of london in Herts so will have to pay london prices:eek::(

keithdc

chunkytfg wrote: »

Okay so the house we are buying appears to have had the Chimney removed from the main living space but is still in the loft. It is a Split design so had 2 flues that rejoined in the loft space just below the ridge of the roof.

As far as we can see it is not supported correctly but is in fact being supported by wedges of random bits of wood on the rafters. This obviously is not correct and as much as it looks to have been like that for many years(20+) it isn't exactly the safest way of doing it!!

So the question is do we remove it or do we support it?

My understanding is that to remove it we need to go down the party wall route getting a party wall surveyor to draw up an agreement etc and then assuming the other party agrees we can remove it.

The other option is to get the Chimney supported. Having a read through my local councils planning regs they don't approve Gallows brackets so it would need to be supported with proper steels which would need to be planned with a Structural engineer.

The FIL is a builder and has said he is happy to do the work for us with just us paying for the materials so the labour aspect of it isn't something to consider.

What would you do and what do you think the difference in the costs would be? We are North of london in Herts so will have to pay london prices:eek::(

Does next door still use the chimney for anything?

Have they had any parts of chimney removed?

If that has been bodged, are you prepared for any other surprises?

chunkytfg

keithdc wrote: »

Does next door still use the chimney for anything?

Have they had any parts of chimney removed?

If that has been bodged, are you prepared for any other surprises?

House is the end of a line of terraces that are not done as symmetrical pairs so the wall doesn't have a chimney on the back of it.

Yeah we are prepared for the rest of the issues. The state of the place tells us the bodges are going to be very limited because of the complete lack of anything being done to it in the past 20 odd years.

Compared to the house we looked at that had been converted to 2 flats, then back to 1 house and the garage being converted into a annexe this place is almost easy! the 1 into 2 and back again house just had the look of a lifetime of corner cutting everywhere:eek::eek:

alanobrien

Doesnt sound like it can't be solved with brackets and a steel see;
https://www.blsurveyors.com/a-guide-to-gallows-brackets/

chunkytfg

alanobrien wrote: »

Doesnt sound like it can't be solved with brackets and a steel see;
https://www.blsurveyors.com/a-guide-to-gallows-brackets/

It could be yes but the local planning rules that I've found explicitly say they wont accept gallows brackets for chimney support

1. A Building Notice is most suitable when small works are to be done and detailed plans are unnecessary. As no formal approval is given, good liaison between the builder and the building control officer is essential to make sure that work is correct. This method is not allowed for work on commercial buildings or where a new building is to be constructed fronting onto a private street. The local authority can, if it thinks necessary, request details and calculations for the work. You should include a location plan showing where the building is relative to neighbouring streets.

Examples of works that maybe suitable for the Building Notice procedure:

removal of load bearing wall
small domestic extension
garage conversion
chimney breast removal NB - WE DO NOT ACCEPT GALLOWS BRACKETS FOR CHIMNEY BREAST REMOVALS

Taken from here

https://www.stalbans.gov.uk/BuildingControl/Advice-and-guidance/

Edit- I swear in the OP i'd mentioned that Gallows brackets are not an option due to local rules!! Sorry

EachPenny

chunkytfg wrote: »

Edit- I swear in the OP i'd mentioned that Gallows brackets are not an option due to local rules!! Sorry

You did.

You need to get a structural engineer involved. If the neighbour had an intact chimney on the other side of the wall then this would probably have given the wall sufficient lateral stability for you to be able to get BC approval to remove the remainder of the chimney on your side.

But without that on the other side, the wall now needs to be checked for lateral stability. The result of that could be that you need to reinstate a chimney-like structure from the ground floor level all the way up through the first floor. Or a structural engineer might be able to devise an alternative support system.

But you won't know what is what until the wall has been assessed by a qualified person.

chunkytfg

EachPenny wrote: »

You did.

I even re read it and couldn't find it so wasn't sure! lol

You need to get a structural engineer involved. If the neighbour had an intact chimney on the other side of the wall then this would probably have given the wall sufficient lateral stability for you to be able to get BC approval to remove the remainder of the chimney on your side.

But without that on the other side, the wall now needs to be checked for lateral stability. The result of that could be that you need to reinstate a chimney-like structure from the ground floor level all the way up through the first floor. Or a structural engineer might be able to devise an alternative support system.

But you won't know what is what until the wall has been assessed by a qualified person.

Makes sense and I appreciate the need to not just 'wing it' in the hope that whatever I choose to support it with is suitable.

To be perfectly frank it was more a case of money. Which would be the cheaper option when the cost of the labour to do the work isn't a factor? SE survey and designs followed by the cost of the support structure or PW agreement and remove?

martinthebandit

Cheapest option may be to buy a different house.

chunkytfg

martinthebandit wrote: »

Cheapest option may be to buy a different house.

:rotfl::rotfl:


Bit more research done and i'm officially confused!

According to this

https://www.stalbans.gov.uk/Images/2_Controlable_Works_tcm15-50308.pdf

Gallows brackets can be used!

Removing Chimney Breasts
If you intend to partially remove a chimney breast, the remaining structure will need to be supported. This can be carried out using steel beams / gallows brackets. The support must be designed by an appropriately qualified person such as a structural engineer and be based on a site survey. Please note that the Party Wall Etc. Act 1996 may apply to this work.

What am i missing? :o

CarrieVS

chunkytfg wrote: »

According to this

https://www.stalbans.gov.uk/Images/2_Controlable_Works_tcm15-50308.pdf

Gallows brackets can be used!

What am i missing? :o

This is a month old so you've probably made your decision or decided not to buy the house, but possibly the answer lies in the fact that this document says it's written by the Hertfordshire Building Control Technical Forum. The page that says very clearly no gallows brackets is specific to St Albans, so I infer that your local building control folks have decided not to approve them, but elsewhere in the county they might be ok.

Homersimpson

Is it feasible just to reinstate the missing section of the chimney, you could then get it working/lined and stick a wood burner in.

I have one in my living room and its lovely on a cold winters evening.