Help challenging freeholder section 20 charges

Shortypie89

lindze wrote: »

I suppose it depends on their lease? My flat is larger than the other flats in our Victorian conversion but we still contribute equally to maintenance costs

I suppose the upshot is that to be able to offer any assistance at all, the OP needs to come back and tell us what was done for the money and a lot more

Yes, the costs were split between leaseholders based on floor size of each flat. Mine is roughly 17%. Total costs for the building were more like £322k. The works were for external repairs and renovations - mostly to the roof and brickwork. There was definitely a need for some works to be done - I'm not contesting that. One of my neighbours is actually a builder himself and put in a quote (but after the consultation period) to complete the works at a much lower rate and higher quality, so I know that the works which were completed were charged at much higher rates than they needed to be. However, it's very very hard as a lay person to understand much of this process. I requested the tender documentation and it seems to be deliberately confusing. The quote received by the company doesn't make any sense - there are numbers put against different items which aren't explained etc. It's fine to say that freeholders have to follow a process, but I don't think most leaseholders without legal/construction knowledge and spare money/time find it very easy to know how to interpret info and how to challenge it.

What I do know for sure is that I was living here while the works were completed and they were shoddy. The upstairs flats flooded cause they didn't cover the roof while repairing it! Several of my windows got broken cause they weren't careful with bricks. After they repaired some windows they sealed them shut for over a month and my freeholder ignored all my emails pointing out that it was a massive fire hazard to have no window access/fresh air coming into the kitchen.

And yes, we all contribute yearly to separate building insurance (I pay around £600 p.a. for that), as well as service charge and ground rent. Clearly the freeholder should have built up a bigger sinking fund previously - and I agree that perhaps people would have 'whinged' but that's not the core issue here is.

Norman_Castle

They need to justify the costs and the increase. This might help.
https://www.lease-advice.org/

lindze

I just used a local surveyor that is well known in my area with a good reputation, so maybe research a few local to you. I also looked up my freeholder on the previous tribunal cases just in case he had been taken to a tribunal before...he had and lost.
All the extra info is good such as a builder in the block can first hand describe what he believes is shoddy work. Did anyone take pictures when the property was undergoing this renovation? Did there need to be any building control sign off?
Has the freeholder sent you copies of the builders invoices? How do we know what he charged you was what he actually paid? Are there any issues now with what was done? Could a surveyor review the work and comment?
A detailed list of works and how much was charged for each stage would be useful so a tribunal can rule on each thing.
If you and other leaseholders bring the freeholder to a tribunal you will probably only need one spokesperson to represent you all so you never know someone may volunteer.
If you decide to take it on apparently it is just 3 adjudicators in a room and you and the freeholder/their rep... just tell your story, back it up with facts/any evidence you can gather and let them consider what is a reasonable cost for each thing. You do need to be sure that the amount charged is unreasonable to the work that has been completed so research is key.
Once you have a hearing date the adjudicators may also want to come to the property to have a look.
When you have your case ready, although you have to send it to tribunal and the freeholder in advance of any hearing, the freeholder also has to send his full defence case to you so you'll be totally aware of what's what.
Hopefully lease can offer a way forward and other leaseholders can help too

Shortypie89

AFF8879 wrote: »

Is this an ex local authority build? Having such large S20 bills is almost unheard of for private developments

No. It's a converted Victorian property with a private freeholder (although I believe he has other freeholds to other properties). He recently applied for planning permission to convert a building next to ours with 7 flats into 9 flats.

redrabbit29

Hi,

Just to hijack this thread a bit. I am 18 months into a section 20 process and they have still not yet established the scope or moved onto stage 2. This process has had a significant and devastating affect on my life as well as my partner:

August 2018
we had sold the property and purchased a 4 bedroom detached house. 3 weeks before sale the freeholder (who own around 8000 properties locally) announced plans to do major works. Estimated costs £15k-£20k

This caused the sale to collapse and cost us £4k.

We offered £15k cash to our buyer and also reduced the house by £10k (with the help of everyone in the chain) but he walked away.

House sale collapsed.

January 2019

6 months of waiting and at a meeting they had no more information, no real plans or anything to show. Revised costs now £10k-£12k.


The current situation

A new senior surveyor has taken over who does seem to know what he's doing and is very good.

He states:

- Previous estimates of £15k-£20k and £10k-£12k are unreliable and based on nothing

- They are willing to talk about payment caps and their contributions as they realise none of us are wealthy - but they can't until they get quotes.

- He admits failings by the freeholder to update us, poor communication etc...

- In June they had two quotes which were "more than anticipated" - but I have not seen them despite asking, and I have no idea to what extent it was more, or even what they asked for in the quotes.

- In July at a meeting he said they would get 6 more quotes and the work would start in November and end in March 2020

- Last week they said that they only received 1 response, every other company did not respond. They are now making the scope smaller and more basic to get more building companies to respond. They hope to have all the quotes and tender done by April 2020.

Basic failings and neglect

Nearly 18 months on we are still trapped here. We have been back on the market twice at heavily reduced rates but the property is in too poor a state to sell despite over 30 more viewings - no offers.

We all believe they have neglected the property. In 9 years (that is only as far as records go back) they have done 30 repairs, 12 of which to guttering which is still not workign properly. Other repairs to "bulbs" and "lighting". There is nothing significant there.

The external cladding is rotting away, and we have been warned not to use the balconies as they are physically unsafe to stand on.

My partner and I can not move on with our life - have kids etc... and we are just waiting month after month for this to start and end.

We have NO IDEA of the costs. Will it be £10k, £20k, £30k, £40k???? No idea.

Interest free credit is an option but we don't know the length of it. If we sold would we be able to carry the debt with us or would we have to pay them in full? If so then that would severly dent our equity.


The Freeholder and property

Our property is 2 bedroom town house/flat style property. The bit in red is our "house". The blue bits are flats. So it's kind of like a house on top of a flat. The house is worth around £210k.



Years ago it was owned by the council but is now owned by the freeholding company. They own around 8000 across town and their tag line is "At <company name> we aim to improve lives by providing the stability of a home and supporting communities".

I don't think they are some ruthless and money-grabbing company, they are an organisation but I still worry they will come out with a huge bill at the end.

redrabbit29

Further to the above, I have very good documentation of events, e.g. they have ignored many emails and not provided basic information.

We have completed stage one. It was all legal and correct, they did ask us for building companies to approach, they sent us the correct letters etc...

My thoughts are turning towards - "what if they try to charge me £30k... I will contest that and go to a First Tier Tribunual". Again, I have no idea on the cost, I may be worrying over nothing, maybe it will be only £10k... I just don't know. The worry is killing me. In fact, some of the time I couldn't care less about costs, I just want to sell and move, get on with our lives.

I did call the Leasehold Advisory Service. Unfortunately it was incredibly disappointing and useless. I will try again as it may be that I just got a poor advisor. Everything I asked about was met with "Yea you could do that..." with no real substance or direction.

My plans are that once they FINALLY get the builders instructed and work started, I will get my own surveyor to check what they're saying and have some form of estimate. Then I can ensure I am be ing charged a reasonable amount.

eddddy

redrabbit29 wrote: »

My plans are that once they FINALLY get the builders instructed and work started, I will get my own surveyor to check what they're saying and have some form of estimate. Then I can ensure I am be ing charged a reasonable amount.

That will be much too late.

If you want to challenge something, you need to do it at the "Notice of intention" stage, or "Notification of estimates" stage.


In simple terms, a section 20 consultation has 3 stages, it should work like this:

Stage 1: Notice of intention
The freeholder says that a, b and c needs to be done.

Stage 2: Notification of estimates
Contractors say "I'll charge £x for doing a, b and c"

Stage 3: A contractor is chosen, based on their estimate


When the contractor starts work, it's too late to say "I don't agree that a, b and c should be done" and/or "I think that £x is too much to pay the contractor".

You (or your surveyor) needs to challenge those things at stage 1 or stage 2.


There's quite a lot of stuff on the web about section 20 consultations, including : https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/what-is-the-section-20-consultation-process-for-major-works/

redrabbit29

eddddy wrote: »

That will be much too late.

If you want to challenge something, you need to do it at the "Notice of intention" stage, or "Notification of estimates" stage.


In simple terms, a section 20 consultation has 3 stages, it should work like this:

Stage 1: Notice of intention
The freeholder says that a, b and c needs to be done.

Stage 2: Notification of estimates
Contractors say "I'll charge £x for doing a, b and c"

Stage 3: A contractor is chosen, based on their estimate


When the contractor starts work, it's too late to say "I don't agree that a, b and c should be done" and/or "I think that £x is too much to pay the contractor".

You (or your surveyor) needs to challenge those things at stage 1 or stage 2.


There's quite a lot of stuff on the web about section 20 consultations, including : https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/what-is-the-section-20-consultation-process-for-major-works/

Thanks eddddddddddy - I don't know why I wrote that, I am aware that it would be too late at that stage.

I think what I meant was that once the actual specification is decided and I actually know what they are planning I will be able to instruct my own surveyor for my own records.

At present I have no idea what they will be doing as it has changed about 3 times - my theory being because they had way too many ambitious and grand plans which have now turned out to be far too expensive.

As an example:

- They were suggesting complete balcony replacement
- Then they asked our views on juliette balconies (We all said that was fine)
- Now they are saying they will leave them as is but just repair where needed


THanks again

ethank

redrabbit29 wrote: »

Years ago it was owned by the council but is now owned by the freeholding company. They own around 8000 across town and their tag line is "At <company name> we aim to improve lives by providing the stability of a home and supporting communities".

I don't think they are some ruthless and money-grabbing company, they are an organisation but I still worry they will come out with a huge bill at the end.

Your freeholder is a housing association.

redrabbit29

ethank wrote: »

Your freeholder is a housing association.

Thanks! I often refer to them as a "housing association" but I was never quite sure - thank you for clarifying that :T