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Disciplinary hearing (advice required please)
florincmf
Posts: 44 Forumite
Good morning,
My story started with this topic (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75056946#Comment_75056946) so now I am facing a disciplinary.
It is scheduled for Monday, 26th November. Now I received the disciplinary letter with 3 allegations which I will write below:
1.Following the suspension of xxxx, a team member who you line manage and who is also a family member (father), following a harrassment claim by another team member you manage, you were asked to not get involved in this case due to the close relation and conflict of interest. You have ignored this request and asked team members to provide statements in favour of your father. You also told your AHM that you would spend a large sum of money to defend your father in court if need be to prove his innocence. You have requested these statements behind the back of your AHM who was the FF manager in this case. You have also told the AHM that the team members who have provided statements are lying.
He was not Fact Finding Manager, he just collected statements and passed them to the person named as Fact Finding Manager. Also, no one passed to me that I should not get involved in the case at any point. No one from ER/HR or my boss.
2. Failing to ensure that a (company's name) colleague is treated fairly and with respect to the expectations and behaviours of a Leader at (company name). Specifically, a team member has raised serious concerns of sexual harassment in the hotel against another team member. You have not been able to remain impartial in this investigation and have taken the side of your father stating “they must be lying”. You have therefore not treated this employee fairly and not allowed for a fair and unbiased investigation to take place.
Never said that in front of him, he just stated this as being a private conversation we had.
3. Serious failure to demonstrate the leadership behaviours and / or management practice required. Specifically, your behaviour and attitude in this matter has shown a serious failure in leadership behaviours and potentially affected any future relationship you have with your team in the hotel and shown a poor example of behaviours we expect from managers towards your AHM.
My AHM was forcefully appointed by my boss and I have emails to prove that so, for this reason, I never liked or trusted the person.
Now in the disciplinary pack I received 1 email (the grievance email sent by AHM who stated all the above), 2 statements from 2 team members who said that I did not influence them or asked them to write statements, 1 more statement from someone who claims that I called and asked for a statement to defend my father (no statements has been passed over from this person), 1 statement from my father's Fact Finding Manager who said that I did not influence her in the way she conducted the meeting or suggested that I would need her help with this matter and that I behaved professionally.
My aim is to get out of this place and still get a reference from them.
What options do I have? My thinking might not be clear as I am devastated by all these and what some people are capable of.
I have in possession emails between me and the recruitment team in regards to what candidates I want for the AHM position and then an email from recruitment telling me that someone else has been scheduled for an interview by my boss (1 day before the intervew) and I was not asked for any view over it. Now on the assesment day my boss wrote down all the scores and made sure that my choice would get a lower score stating that she has children and would not be good.
I also have statements from 2 team members who said that the AHM tried to manipulate what they will be saying in a Fact Finding with an independent manager and they raised concerns about his involvment.
Now how can I make use of these if any?
Sorry for the long topic, just tried to provide as many details as possible and thank you all for looking into this!
My story started with this topic (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75056946#Comment_75056946) so now I am facing a disciplinary.
It is scheduled for Monday, 26th November. Now I received the disciplinary letter with 3 allegations which I will write below:
1.Following the suspension of xxxx, a team member who you line manage and who is also a family member (father), following a harrassment claim by another team member you manage, you were asked to not get involved in this case due to the close relation and conflict of interest. You have ignored this request and asked team members to provide statements in favour of your father. You also told your AHM that you would spend a large sum of money to defend your father in court if need be to prove his innocence. You have requested these statements behind the back of your AHM who was the FF manager in this case. You have also told the AHM that the team members who have provided statements are lying.
He was not Fact Finding Manager, he just collected statements and passed them to the person named as Fact Finding Manager. Also, no one passed to me that I should not get involved in the case at any point. No one from ER/HR or my boss.
2. Failing to ensure that a (company's name) colleague is treated fairly and with respect to the expectations and behaviours of a Leader at (company name). Specifically, a team member has raised serious concerns of sexual harassment in the hotel against another team member. You have not been able to remain impartial in this investigation and have taken the side of your father stating “they must be lying”. You have therefore not treated this employee fairly and not allowed for a fair and unbiased investigation to take place.
Never said that in front of him, he just stated this as being a private conversation we had.
3. Serious failure to demonstrate the leadership behaviours and / or management practice required. Specifically, your behaviour and attitude in this matter has shown a serious failure in leadership behaviours and potentially affected any future relationship you have with your team in the hotel and shown a poor example of behaviours we expect from managers towards your AHM.
My AHM was forcefully appointed by my boss and I have emails to prove that so, for this reason, I never liked or trusted the person.
Now in the disciplinary pack I received 1 email (the grievance email sent by AHM who stated all the above), 2 statements from 2 team members who said that I did not influence them or asked them to write statements, 1 more statement from someone who claims that I called and asked for a statement to defend my father (no statements has been passed over from this person), 1 statement from my father's Fact Finding Manager who said that I did not influence her in the way she conducted the meeting or suggested that I would need her help with this matter and that I behaved professionally.
My aim is to get out of this place and still get a reference from them.
What options do I have? My thinking might not be clear as I am devastated by all these and what some people are capable of.
I have in possession emails between me and the recruitment team in regards to what candidates I want for the AHM position and then an email from recruitment telling me that someone else has been scheduled for an interview by my boss (1 day before the intervew) and I was not asked for any view over it. Now on the assesment day my boss wrote down all the scores and made sure that my choice would get a lower score stating that she has children and would not be good.
I also have statements from 2 team members who said that the AHM tried to manipulate what they will be saying in a Fact Finding with an independent manager and they raised concerns about his involvment.
Now how can I make use of these if any?
Sorry for the long topic, just tried to provide as many details as possible and thank you all for looking into this!
0
Comments
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These are allegations so the purpose of the disciplinary hearing is to determine whether or not they have any basis in fact. Nit picking over whether somebody was the FF manager or just assisting the FF manager isn't going to get you very far if the statement was made - whoever it was made to.
If an allegation was made against your father you should have immediately removed yourself from any involvement in the investigation as, even if you were scrupulously fair in the way you dealt with it, other parties would be unlikely to believe that to be the case.
What does "forcefully appointed" mean. A manager generally has the right to appoint whoever they believe is the right person to a role, whether other staff like it or not.
Trying to bring in things which have no direct relevance to your disciplinary is (a) likely not be allowed (b) of no help in your attempts to disprove the claims about your actions. You must remember that the disciplinary is all about YOUR ACTIONS, not the actions of other people.
As you want to get out anyway, I think the best you can hope for is to say that, although you dispute the allegations, you won't fight them as long as the company undertakes to provide you with a neutral reference. That is a reference which simply states the role or roles you were employed in along with start and end dates of employment.0 -
My replies are in red within your original post:Good morning,
My story started with this topic (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75056946#Comment_75056946) so now I am facing a disciplinary.
It is scheduled for Monday, 26th November. Now I received the disciplinary letter with 3 allegations which I will write below:
1.Following the suspension of xxxx, a team member who you line manage and who is also a family member (father), following a harrassment claim by another team member you manage, you were asked to not get involved in this case due to the close relation and conflict of interest. You have ignored this request and asked team members to provide statements in favour of your father. You contend below that you were not given this reasonable order by anyone. Ask the employer what evidence they have that you were given this order. You also told your AHM that you would spend a large sum of money to defend your father in court if need be to prove his innocence. In the hearing, I suggest you say that this was just you expressing your opinion that your father was innocent. You have requested these statements behind the back of your AHM who was the FF manager in this case. You have also told the AHM that the team members who have provided statements are lying. Again, you are just stating an opinion here.
He was not Fact Finding Manager, he just collected statements and passed them to the person named as Fact Finding Manager. Also, no one passed to me that I should not get involved in the case at any point. No one from ER/HR or my boss.
2. Failing to ensure that a (company's name) colleague is treated fairly and with respect to the expectations and behaviours of a Leader at (company name). Specifically, a team member has raised serious concerns of sexual harassment in the hotel against another team member. You have not been able to remain impartial in this investigation and have taken the side of your father stating “they must be lying”. You have therefore not treated this employee fairly and not allowed for a fair and unbiased investigation to take place.
Never said that in front of him, he just stated this as being a private conversation we had.
The issue isn't that you said something, but that you have not been able to remain impartial. It is clear that you were not and cannot be impartial, and thus you should not have been allowed to have any part in the formal investigation into your father's conduct. I think the company has an unreaslistic expection that having excluded you from the formal investigation, you would not continue to have an opinion on the matter. The question is, did you do something that was unreasonable about the issue; go beyond expressing your support for your father?. There are limits to what you could reasonably do do, and exceeding these limits might make you guilty of this particular allegation.
3. Serious failure to demonstrate the leadership behaviours and / or management practice required. Specifically, your behaviour and attitude in this matter has shown a serious failure in leadership behaviours and potentially affected any future relationship you have with your team in the hotel and shown a poor example of behaviours we expect from managers towards your AHM.
My AHM was forcefully appointed by my boss and I have emails to prove that so, for this reason, I never liked or trusted the person. Sadly this is irrelevant. You have to be able to work with your colleagues however they are appointed, and if you can't, leave.
Now in the disciplinary pack I received 1 email (the grievance email sent by AHM who stated all the above), 2 statements from 2 team members who said that I did not influence them or asked them to write statements, 1 more statement from someone who claims that I called and asked for a statement to defend my father (no statements has been passed over from this person), 1 statement from my father's Fact Finding Manager who said that I did not influence her in the way she conducted the meeting or suggested that I would need her help with this matter and that I behaved professionally.
My aim is to get out of this place and still get a reference from them.
What options do I have? My thinking might not be clear as I am devastated by all these and what some people are capable of. You have at least two options; try to negotiate for a reference as per the previous post, or fight the allegations and take whatever reference they give you. My recommendation is for the latter. You employer has a weak case, against some strong allegations.
I have in possession emails between me and the recruitment team in regards to what candidates I want for the AHM position and then an email from recruitment telling me that someone else has been scheduled for an interview by my boss (1 day before the intervew) and I was not asked for any view over it. Now on the assesment day my boss wrote down all the scores and made sure that my choice would get a lower score stating that she has children and would not be good. The time to deal with this is long past; move on.
I also have statements from 2 team members who said that the AHM tried to manipulate what they will be saying in a Fact Finding with an independent manager and they raised concerns about his involvment. I would let your Dad use this evidence in his defence.
Now how can I make use of these if any?
Sorry for the long topic, just tried to provide as many details as possible and thank you all for looking into this!The comments I post are my personal opinion. While I try to check everything is correct before posting, I can and do make mistakes, so always try to check official information sources before relying on my posts.0 -
My replies are in red within your original post:
Thank you for your reply!
Now to answer your question "The question is, did you do something that was unreasonable about the issue; go beyond expressing your support for your father?. There are limits to what you could reasonably do do, and exceeding these limits might make you guilty of this particular allegation."
Everything they have against is what the AHM said so I got his statement as evidence. Now they march on the fact that I manipulated two team members to gather statements on behalf of my father. My father texted everyone in regards to writing a statement for him, another team member collected them all and said (to a fact finding manager) he met my father in town and passed them all. Some people came to me with the statements which I passed onto this team member colecting them. They asked two people the following questions: 1. If I put them to write the statements. 2. If they were influenced by me to write the statements.They both said no.
Now I am accused of chosing 2 managers who are on my side and felt like they would influence the disciplinary. I chosen the Fact Finding Manager after discussing this with my boss over the phone and he said that this person would be good as my father never worked for her and she is a woman. Then I called her and asked if she is okay to do this Fact Finding and this is where the conversation stopped. The second manager the AHM said I choose to be note taker, I did not even speak to him or anything at all, I do not know how he was appointed as note taker.0 -
Thank you for your reply!
Now to answer your question "The question is, did you do something that was unreasonable about the issue; go beyond expressing your support for your father?. There are limits to what you could reasonably do do, and exceeding these limits might make you guilty of this particular allegation."
Everything they have against is what the AHM said so I got his statement as evidence. Now they march on the fact that I manipulated two team members to gather statements on behalf of my father. My father texted everyone in regards to writing a statement for him, another team member collected them all and said (to a fact finding manager) he met my father in town and passed them all. Some people came to me with the statements which I passed onto this team member colecting them. They asked two people the following questions: 1. If I put them to write the statements. 2. If they were influenced by me to write the statements.They both said no.
Now I am accused of chosing 2 managers who are on my side and felt like they would influence the disciplinary. I chosen the Fact Finding Manager after discussing this with my boss over the phone and he said that this person would be good as my father never worked for her and she is a woman. Then I called her and asked if she is okay to do this Fact Finding and this is where the conversation stopped. The second manager the AHM said I choose to be note taker, I did not even speak to him or anything at all, I do not know how he was appointed as note taker.
Obviously too late now, but you should have recused yourself from ANY selection. ANY statement collection. ANYTHING to do with the disciplinary.
There was a very clear conflict of interest. You collected some statements, what's to say you didn't destroy any negative ones?
You have a real issue with your assistant. The fact that they were appointed for you, rather than by you, is obviously a big issue for you. Something which is now biting you in the backside.0 -
Obviously too late now, but you should have recused yourself from ANY selection. ANY statement collection. ANYTHING to do with the disciplinary.
There was a very clear conflict of interest. You collected some statements, what's to say you didn't destroy any negative ones?
You have a real issue with your assistant. The fact that they were appointed for you, rather than by you, is obviously a big issue for you. Something which is now biting you in the backside.
Yes, I am aware of that. Now this AHM dragged into a fact finding another few managers on the assumption that they helped me. They did not for sure but my AHM wrote the victim's statement in my father's case and they told him that this is not professional and it might not be credible and he went to ER about them being threatening and making him feel uncomfortable. I passed this information (as I got all his grievance against everyone) to these two managers and they are fuming because they know based on his words they will go through a fact finding.0 -
I spoken with a Trade Union representative and it will cost me £95/h to represent me. Now I am hoping that either I will get good reference with a clean exit or a case for a Tribunal. I am still to decide if I go ahead with the Trade Union or not.0
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Is that because you weren't in a union?I spoken with a Trade Union representative and it will cost me £95/h to represent me. Now I am hoping that either I will get good reference with a clean exit or a case for a Tribunal. I am still to decide if I go ahead with the Trade Union or not.
I mean there's nothing to say you would lose this, so why a tribunal is necessary im not sure0 -
B*gger! I'm a trade union representative and I'm in the wrong business!!!I spoken with a Trade Union representative and it will cost me £95/h to represent me. Now I am hoping that either I will get good reference with a clean exit or a case for a Tribunal. I am still to decide if I go ahead with the Trade Union or not.
Seriously though, there's potentially enough grey areas here to make talk of a tribunal very premature. Add in, tribunals do not rehear the evidence against your and come to their own conclusion, and employers only need to have a reasonable belief that you are guilty. People here have reasonable belief and that's based on your side of the story!!!
If all you want is a clean exit and a good reference, negotiate it. Try for a settlement agreement now. They may be more than happy to put the whole thing to bed sooner rather than later. You have nothing to lose by naming "your price" to go quietly. Provided you don't get too greedy, you may be able to make that clean break.0 -
B*gger! I'm a trade union representative and I'm in the wrong business!!!
Seriously though, there's potentially enough grey areas here to make talk of a tribunal very premature. Add in, tribunals do not rehear the evidence against your and come to their own conclusion, and employers only need to have a reasonable belief that you are guilty. People here have reasonable belief and that's based on your side of the story!!!
If all you want is a clean exit and a good reference, negotiate it. Try for a settlement agreement now. They may be more than happy to put the whole thing to bed sooner rather than later. You have nothing to lose by naming "your price" to go quietly. Provided you don't get too greedy, you may be able to make that clean break.
The price was a quote from a solicitor company. They want £450 for 5 hours including the trip.
To be fair, I do not even want to work for this company anymore, it makes me feel really uncomfortable. I spoken with a work colleague now and 3 people from my team resigned and some will follow.
Now how it would be an appropriate approach to negociate an exit? How shall I put things not to sound like a blackmail or threaten? I am worried about not using the proper wording.0 -
At this stage, it's probably not important what wording you use. So straight to the point. You have no wish to continue working for the company, so this can be settled; or you will fight to the death and they will find themselves in a tribunal because the allegations are false and you aren't going down without a fight. You are willing to settle now, but only for a settlement agreement in law - they pay your fees, you sign away your rights to claim in return for a good agreed reference stating termination was by mutual agreement, and whatever can you realistically think you might be able to achieve.The price was a quote from a solicitor company. They want £450 for 5 hours including the trip.
To be fair, I do not even want to work for this company anymore, it makes me feel really uncomfortable. I spoken with a work colleague now and 3 people from my team resigned and some will follow.
Now how it would be an appropriate approach to negociate an exit? How shall I put things not to sound like a blackmail or threaten? I am worried about not using the proper wording.
As I said, don't be to cash greedy unless you are certain you can win a tribunal - what nearly everyone thinks it's a certain win... Well the statistics say otherwise. The minimum... Your notice plus holidays owed. If you can get more that's a bonus. You may be able to push for even more than that - but if you want to be able to move on quickly, without months or longer in a fight that you could easily lose, don't pay attention to news headlines. Even with a great case, the median award for a tribunal only amounts to around £7k. Big payouts are the exception, which is why they get headlines. But past that, knowing the employer and how far you can push is your tool - nobody here can tell you that.0
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