Loft Office Suitability Query?

sevenhills

wolfmansgotnards wrote: »

As I am getting conflicting information, my best guess is that there is no correct answer?
If no fire and safety regulations are required to sit storage items in the loft 365 days a year, I didn't see why things would change for me to be there for an hour every few days.

Thats right, no one knows how much weight the beams in your loft will take. I believe older houses will be more foregiving, but it is guesswork without employing a structural engineer.
My loft is boarded out, with some items stored up there, everything seems dry, I guess its just like having things stored in my unheated outbuilding attatched to the house.

Fire_Fox

wolfmansgotnards wrote: »

Not knowing about these things doesn't make me an idiot. It just means I am unsure of the things most of you are sure about. Hence coming here for advice.

As I am getting conflicting information, my best guess is that there is no correct answers?

I don't think you have had conflicting information? Different posters have commented on different aspects of health and safety, depending on their knowledge base and the evolving information supplied.

For example Doozergirl is a very experienced property developer. She is not in the business of wasting money, hers or anyone she helps on MSE. If there was a quick, easy, cheap and safe route to making your loft space habitable she would point you in the right direction.

I am overhauling the electrics and ventilation system, as well as further insulating the windows in my middle floor flat. Obviously I did not start out researching fire regs or the underlying reasons, but it is unavoidable! Where I don't understand I trust that the experts (Building Regs, my electrician/ ventilation installer, fire service) have a vested interest in keeping me, my property, themselves and my neighbours safe.

Please, do as I am: trust the experts do not assume.

AndyMc.....

sevenhills wrote: »

Thats right, no one knows how much weight the beams in your loft will take. I believe older houses will be more foregiving, but it is guesswork without employing a structural engineer.
My loft is boarded out, with some items stored up there, everything seems dry, I guess its just like having things stored in my unheated outbuilding attatched to the house.

Weren't you asking advice on converting your loft on the cheap too?

Doozergirl

You're not getting conflicting advice. There's one conversation about insulation and I've started one about the safety of the joists. I haven't refuted anything said about insulation, nor has anyone suggested that your joists are safe to take your weight.

Each Penny has also now pointed out for you why fire safety is important when you are in your loft.

My impression is that the conflict is yours. You're not reading what you want to hear. No one has suggested that you are an idiot at all, but when you are given information that furnishes you with more knowledge than you had on a subject, even if you don't believe it at first, it's a good idea to perhaps continue that research and think about heeding it.

Sitting in a loft 'temporarily', on insufficient joists and chipboard, with no safe fire escape while carrying electricals on extension leads isn't the best idea. Your own safety is more important than your stuff being 'exposed to the elements' up there.

Building Regulations are minimum standards, not the Gold Standard for loft conversions.

wolfmansgotnards

Doozergirl wrote: »

You're not getting conflicting advice. There's one conversation about insulation and I've started one about the safety of the joists. I haven't refuted anything said about insulation, nor has anyone suggested that your joists are safe to take your weight.

Each Penny has also now pointed out for you why fire safety is important when you are in your loft.

My impression is that the conflict is yours. You're not reading what you want to hear. No one has suggested that you are an idiot at all, but when you are given information that furnishes you with more knowledge than you had on a subject, even if you don't believe it at first, it's a good idea to perhaps continue that research and think about heeding it.

Sitting in a loft 'temporarily', on insufficient joists and chipboard, with no safe fire escape while carrying electricals on extension leads isn't the best idea. Your own safety is more important than your stuff being 'exposed to the elements' up there.

Building Regulations are minimum standards, not the Gold Standard for loft conversions.

I'm not denying any information given to me at all. I seemed to be getting hostile responses for no reason. Hostile in the sense that the things I suggested doing were ridiculous and I should know better.

Anyway, back to the point. The weight of items is pretty alarming if standard beams shouldn't take the weight of items currently in my loft. For example. I am around 11st. There is a water tank in my loft that is fully of water. The tank is about the size of a standard bath tub. I estimate that this tank is around 3 times my weight and has been sitting there for decades.

Now again, I am no structural engineer, but this is why the average Joe (like myself) probably wouldn't find it an issue with sitting in a loft for an hour with items as light as lights and a laptop, when a huge water tank sits in the same location that totally outweighs everything else.

It is quite possible that maybe the whole roof, or even just the area where the tank resides has been strengthened. But I have no idea how to check this without being a professional. It isn't shown on any deeds I got when purchasing the house.

dunroving

wolfmansgotnards wrote: »

I'm not denying any information given to me at all. I seemed to be getting hostile responses for no reason. Hostile in the sense that the things I suggested doing were ridiculous and I should know better.

Anyway, back to the point. The weight of items is pretty alarming if standard beams shouldn't take the weight of items currently in my loft. For example. I am around 11st. There is a water tank in my loft that is fully of water. The tank is about the size of a standard bath tub. I estimate that this tank is around 3 times my weight and has been sitting there for decades.

Now again, I am no structural engineer, but this is why the average Joe (like myself) probably wouldn't find it an issue with sitting in a loft for an hour with items as light as lights and a laptop, when a huge water tank sits in the same location that totally outweighs everything else.

It is quite possible that maybe the whole roof, or even just the area where the tank resides has been strengthened. But I have no idea how to check this without being a professional. It isn't shown on any deeds I got when purchasing the house.

You can sometimes see additional "woodwork" under a water tank.

EachPenny

wolfmansgotnards wrote: »

I'm not denying any information given to me at all. I seemed to be getting hostile responses for no reason. Hostile in the sense that the things I suggested doing were ridiculous and I should know better.

If you are sensing any hostility it is perhaps because when people have been explaining stuff your response hasn't been "Oh crumbs, I didn't think of that" as an 'average Joe' might, but instead you've responded with your theories of why you believe you are right to think what you think.

For example:-

wolfmansgotnards wrote: »

Anyway, back to the point. The weight of items is pretty alarming if standard beams shouldn't take the weight of items currently in my loft. For example. I am around 11st. There is a water tank in my loft that is fully of water. The tank is about the size of a standard bath tub. I estimate that this tank is around 3 times my weight and has been sitting there for decades.

Now again, I am no structural engineer, but this is why the average Joe (like myself) probably wouldn't find it an issue with sitting in a loft for an hour with items as light as lights and a laptop, when a huge water tank sits in the same location that totally outweighs everything else.

It is quite possible that maybe the whole roof, or even just the area where the tank resides has been strengthened. But I have no idea how to check this without being a professional. It isn't shown on any deeds I got when purchasing the house.

As Doozergirl said:-
"Loft conversions cost a small fortune. The joists that would form the ceiling would have been designed small, only to hold the ceiling boards beneath. Putting flooring over it doesn't make it safe or suitable to sit up there. They need to be strengthened to support a floor for someone to sit at."

Rather than doing the 'average Joe' thing of saying "Thanks Doozergirl, that didn't occur to me" you've come back with a convoluted defence of your thoughts and wrongly claimed you are "getting conflicting information". Your 'best guess' should have been that there is a 'correct answer' but that you perhaps hadn't understood it correctly.

As for your water tank, if it is something like the typical 50 gallon one then I'd expect it to weigh in the region of 28 to 30 stone when full, so your 3x guess is about right. But your water tank is a static load - it doesn't move, the only thing it does is get slightly heavier and lighter as water is used and replenished. The person who designed your roof will also have followed the guidance and regulations for supporting the load of the tank and distributing it over enough structural members in the roof to make it safe. If the roof is constructed with pre-fabricated trusses then those ones supporting the tank would have been specified as 'Tank' rather than 'No tank' so if necessary they would be stronger to support the additional weight.

You and your equipment on the other hand would be defined as 'dynamic loads'. You move around and as a result impose greater loading on structures than your equivalent weight as a static load. This is something that ought to be understandable to a non-structural engineer, but can be demonstrated (though not advised) by first gently placing a hammer on top of your thumb, and then allowing the same hammer to fall about 6" onto your thumb. In the latter case your howls of pain and tears will be a good indication of the effect of 'dynamic loading' in comparison to 'static loading'.

Hence it is entirely possible for your 3x heavier water tank to sit safely supported by three or perhaps four trusses, whereas your 1x weight effectively supported by only one or two trusses would be unsafe.

At this point an 'average Joe' would say "Thanks for explaining that, I had absolutely no idea of the difference between dynamic and static loading. I'll call in a structural engineer to advise me."

dunroving

EachPenny wrote: »

<<snip>>

At this point an 'average Joe' would say "Thanks for explaining that, I had absolutely no idea of the difference between dynamic and static loading. I'll call in a structural engineer to advise me."

I did just that when considering whether to board my attic (still can't call it a "loft" after 3 decades in the US) in my new house (new to me; 1960s built).

The structural engineer gave me sound advice, similar to what has been given in this thread, that while the joists will support part-boarding of the loft with lightweight boards (18mm rather than 22m), I should be sure not to store heavy objects up there, or I might be sorry. It was worth the expense to be sure I wasn't making a mistake.

I did rather stupidly ride my bike trainer in the floored attic at my previous house, with predictable results on the plaster work down below... although it was a sturdier roof structure than my current house, I was probably lucky I didn't fall through the ceiling..

sevenhills

dunroving wrote: »

I did rather stupidly ride my bike trainer in the floored attic at my previous house, with predictable results on the plaster work down below... although it was a sturdier roof structure than my current house, I was probably lucky I didn't fall through the ceiling..

My room and kitchen ceiling has fairly straight cracks, which I assume is nothing to worry about, its been the same for at least 4 years.
I guess the OP would see similar cracks before any real harm was done.
I have never heard of ceilings collapsing; maybe people in the trade have?

EachPenny

sevenhills wrote: »

My room and kitchen ceiling has fairly straight cracks, which I assume is nothing to worry about, its been the same for at least 4 years.
I guess the OP would see similar cracks before any real harm was done.
I have never heard of ceilings collapsing; maybe people in the trade have?

Unfortunately you guess wrong.

If you add load gradually to the roof structure you might see cracks developing in the ceiling below, but only if the roof structure is deforming under load in a way which causes visible cracks.

What if the cracks are developing out of sight because the ceiling is covered with a flexible or semi-flexible material? Perhaps the room has a suspended ceiling?

Alternatively the structure might be resisting deformation but is becoming overstressed. That could happen for example if one of the webs (e.g. the diagonal parts of a fink truss) is acting as a tie and preventing the ceiling joist sagging. However the web/joist connection is likely to be made using nailplates with a maximum load capacity. It is entirely possible for that nailplate joint to fail instantaneously - literally being torn out of the wood on one side or the other - so your ceiling could go from looking perfectly normal to being on a heap on the floor in a matter of seconds.

And clearly, if you are laying asleep under an overloaded ceiling you are not going to see any cracks starting to develop. That might happen for example as overnight snow starts building up on the roof above.

Full scale ceiling collapses are quite rare - certainly not something you'd see on the news very often - simply because in most cases the first signs will be some cracking and that is normally enough for most people to assume something is wrong and either remove some of the load or get professional help.