Handed a notice of Training costs after training has been completed.

System

Sign it and date it with the date you sign it. If you leave before 2020 and they try to enforce it you have evidence that you started training before they asked you to sign which is likely to void their ability to recoup the training costs as such things cannot be applied retrospectively when worded the way they have done.

Les79

Any scope to negotiate better terms?


The employer seems concerned about staff retention to a degree and you may have some limited scope to play on that a bit (obviously only if you're good at negotiating and don't push it too much). You could also probably explain why you have already shown loyalty which suggests you won't be leaving any time soon.


Could then lead on to offering them more of a token term, for example paying off 10% of the course fees if you leave early. The only rub is that they'll quite easily deduct that from your final pay check if you do leave. But at least you'd be square with them.


May also be an idea to speak to the likes of ACAS about potential constructive dismissal. Or whether you can write anything on the signature box which means that you are signing because you believe it may be detrimental to your job but you don't agree to it (though that might be akin to just not signing it!)

Undervalued

Tarambor wrote: »

Sign it and date it with the date you sign it. If you leave before 2020 and they try to enforce it you have evidence that you started training before they asked you to sign which is likely to void their ability to recoup the training costs as such things cannot be applied retrospectively when worded the way they have done.

That was certainly my initial reaction when I read the OP and as far as I know an agreement signed after the event, would be unenforceable. There is a clear legal requirement for a specific prior agreement to be in place for training fees to be recoverable. However I would suggest taking legal advice on that point.

That said, regardless of the legalities there are two obvious dangers. One is being dismissed within the two years for "no reason at all" which they are quite entitled to do. The other, regardless of the reason for leaving, is that they just deduct the money from your final pay. That would leave you having to instigate legal action against them to recover it. Although you would most likely win these things have a habit of getting out and could affect you chances of getting another job.

Difficult one.

System

This is quite common really...although not sure how far an employer will take this. I signed as part of my MA - I didn't finish due to a combination of factors including treatment by staff on the course. The agreement stated that I had to stay for two years afterwards or if I failed, I would have to pay it back. Well, I didn't pass but after an negotiation they were fine with it. Cross the bridge if and when you come to it I say!

Andy_L

Brummie85 wrote: »

They've probably spent another £1200 or so on things like MEWP, Confined Space & use of Pressure Wash equipment. But none of these are being included in the training clawback. It's specifically the HNC they are looking at.

The academic quals like a HNC are usually classed as personal development (or similar phrase). The others are H&S training which employees cannot be made to pay for

ReadingTim

If you have no intention of leaving, you're arguing about the principle of it, and whilst it's all very well having principles, sticking up for this one could cause issues which you may prefer to avoid, and can easily do so.

You also have to consider the extent to which they'd go after you for any outstanding balance that's not covered by your last salary payment if you resign - despite what they say, any companies can't be bothered with the hassle and cost of getting money back from ex-employees and simply write it off. I appreciate that losing your final salary payment isn't great, but you can plan for that if you know you're going to resign, so it shouldn't be a shock (and it's worth doing that anyway, as sometimes it can take a month or so before you pay at the new place gets sorted.

Suggest you sign, and maybe in your covering note/e-mail, express "disappointment" that this wasn't explained at the time, but leave it at that. If you're not going to leave, it's not a problem, and even if you do, they may be unlikely to come after you for then full amount anyway...

Undervalued

ReadingTim wrote: »

Suggest you sign, and maybe in your covering note/e-mail, express "disappointment" that this wasn't explained at the time, but leave it at that. If you're not going to leave, it's not a problem, and even if you do, they may be unlikely to come after you for then full amount anyway...

Sorry but I certainly wouldn't suggest doing that! That could possibly be interpreted as choosing making some specific agreement which might be enforceable.

As I said earlier an agreement signed and dated after the event is most likely unenforceable for this purpose. However I would suggest getting legal advice on that point if the OP feels it important enough. Assuming no legal advice to the contrary then, if I was the OP, I would just sign and date the training agreement in the reasonably certain knowledge that it is worthless!

Obviously if the OP does leave (or is sacked) during that time then he will have to decide whether it is worth fighting.

However, if the OP remains employed for the required time it all becomes a moot point.

steampowered

I do not think it is correct to say that the agreement would not be enforceable because it is signed after you started the training.

There is no reason why you couldn't sign an agreement now that deals with training costs paid in the past.

The Employment Rights Act 1996 simply says that authorisation to deduct from your wages needs to be in writing. It says nothing about training costs needing to be in the future or anything like that.

The reality is that if you sign this the employer would simply deduct training costs from your final wage packet if you were to resign or were to be sacked.

I don't think legal advice would help you on this. Either you sign the agreement or you don't.

Personally, I simply wouldn't sign - it is not reasonable for an employer to ask you to sign something retrospectively. If they wanted to handcuff you that should have been explained before they recruited you.

Brummie85

The document is next worthless.

It has the wrong course details on in places, doesn't even have my full details on (the classic "Insert address here" was left in place of the information)

It states that the agreement must be made and signed for before (rather then after) training has commenced, let alone 5 months after it was finished.

The terms demanding payment of outstanding balance within 7 days if my final pay doesn't cover the amount owed are punitive in nature. It doesn't aid the company in recovering their loss (the amount doesn't change after 7 days), but it would discourage someone from leaving because it encourages them to worry about finding the money if their pay won't cover it. If it went to court and the agreement was found penalise employees, it would be thrown out.

Ignoring them isn't an option. I will go back and have a word with them, explaining the reasons I don't want to sign the document as it stands and the areas they need to go over to make it appropriate for the intended purpose. If they don't get back to me it's their fault. But if I try to sweep it under the carpet it may get flagged anyway and I'll look like I had something to hide.

BoGoF

Why would you want to make it appropriate for the intended purpose? As things stand if you sign it's virtually unenforceable if it contains so many errors......why do you want them to correct these when you dont want to sign it anyway.

As has been said several times, making a fuss with less than 2 years service is not a good idea.