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Victory against UKPC/SCS Law in court for residential and loading bay parking
redrabbit17
Posts: 20 Forumite
I thought I’d post my experience in court in the hope it may help someone. These forums have been very helpful to me in winning this case and I would like to sincerely thank all the contributors. I could never have done it without you. Apologies if it is quite long. If anyone
needs any help with similar cases, I’d gladly try my best.
Background – 6 tickets issued over 4 years ago. 5 for parking in my own designated parking spot in the underground car park without my permit on the dashboard (it was on the passenger seat) and 1 for parking in a loading area that wasn’t marked as a loading area nor had any signage whatsoever. I revisited the site a few days before court and now there are plenty of signs by the loading bay. I didn’t put this in my defence or WS as I discovered it later but mentioned it in my skeleton argument and later in the court room, verbally.
My defence – fob-controlled car park with designated space so no reason to park unlawfully, no mention of fines in tenancy agreement, unclear signs in car park, no mention of displaying permit exclusively on dashboard, unclear photographs (literally all black squares) with no proof that I wasn’t displaying a permit.
Pre- court – ignored all mail from various companies until the claim letter. Responded with a good defence that I devised solely from these forums. Forgot to do the witness statement in the allocated time so sent it 7 days before court in the hope it would be accepted. I have no idea if it was or not. 3 days before – submitted skeleton argument, which was loosely based on my WS but without the multitude of photographs/evidence I had taken. Emailed schedule of costs a day before.
On the day – slight nerves, but quietly confident. Stopped at a shop to get change for parking beforehand as the last thing you want on the day is to forage for change and then have to run off and find a shop. Peanut Butter Kit Kat Chunky and an Aero Mint on offer – 2 for £1, was that a sign that it would be a good day? I had all my documents ready in a file, in order and labelled with coloured tabs so I could switch between them quickly. I also took all the documents the Claimant had submitted – including their 90 odd page witness statement which would turn out to be the key document in the court room.
Checked in around 30mins before my court time. UKPC hadn’t turned up yet. Couldn’t be bothered reading my notes as I just wanted it to be over and knew all my arguments quite well. Moments later, a lady was at the desk and they called my name – she came and introduced herself and was generally being very friendly, stated some obvious facts and asked if I had any questions. I wasn’t to be fooled. She was my enemy at this moment, so I wasn’t letting the smile and friendly demeanour fool me. A few minutes later, she approached me again with some general chit chat about my car and that she had the same model – I found this very strange that she’s trying to leach £1500 from me yet also trying to be my friend at the same time? I wasn’t having any of it but kept composed until she realised I didn’t really want to talk to her.
In the court room – the judge invited us in and asked us to sit down. It was like the board room in The Apprentice. I sat directly opposite the judge. He came across quite quickly as a very nice man. Began with questioning how it had taken 4 years to get to court. We immediately started talking about my side of the case.
We initially talked about how I had a permit like all residents, that it was a gated car park with access by fob only and how the permit was a small piece of card without adhesive. I mentioned that I would put it on the passenger seat whilst driving as it moved around on the dashboard and would put it on the dashboard once I parked up but being human – I or anyone else driving the car could occasionally forget. The judge was fine with this. He mentioned the shocking photographs in the claimants WS of the front of my car. The opposition agreed the photographs were terrible. She also agreed that I had a permit like all residents of the car park. The judge was clearly struggling to see why I had received so many penalties. The claimant said there was no permit visible. I said it was always visible and the parking attendant didn’t see it, or even CHOSE not to see it. From the look in her eyes and the change from friendliness to scorn – she knew I was talking about the doctoring of images by UKPC by which they were found guilty of a few years ago.
We then went on to discuss the final ticket – parking in a loading area. The underground car park had no lift to the ground floor. I had to go up a flight of metal stairs, across a courtyard that was decked with wood so could get slippery when wet, then into the building via the main entrance and up the lift to my apartment. Beside the main entrance – there was an embankment that had enough room for a car to park and enough room for a car to drive past at the same time. When carrying heavy items such as shopping bags, furniture etc, I would park in the embankment by the main entrance, unload the car and take the goods up to my apartment and then proceed to move the car back into the underground car park. It would be very difficult as well as a health and safety risk if I was to walk up the metal stairs and across the slippery, wet decking with large shopping bags. My child had only just learnt to walk at that time too so if she wanted picking up it would leave me with all sorts of problems. The sensible thing to do would be to park next to the entrance temporarily. The photos of the car are quite clear and show no parking signs. There is a parking sign on its own in the photographs, but it could be taken from anywhere. The claimant said, “the brick-work in the background is the same” with the judge replying, “it is the same throughout the whole building”. She then said the sign has a symbol of a lorry and that only lorries could park there to unload. I couldn’t even believe what she was saying. The timing between the first and last photo was only 8 minutes and I argued it would take me longer than 8 minutes to unload, take the contents up to my top floor apartment and come back down. Especially with a wandering child. By this point, myself and the judge were picking apart the claimant’s shambolic WS at will. Ultimately, they were the cause of their own downfall as all their “evidence” suggested I was in the right. I can’t believe such weak claims were submitted.
When it was the claimant’s turn to speak – she asked why I hadn’t responded to any mail or tickets attached to the windscreen. My response was brutally honest – “Like any legally untrained person would do, I Googled it and was told that I didn’t have to reply to such constant and harassing mail from fraudulent companies that I am not legally obliged to reply to”. I also didn’t feel the need to as the letters said I committed an offence, yet when I looked in the top corner of the letter for evidence (the photograph), all I could see was a black box. She then moved onto the actual ticket and how it said I had ‘parked in a designated parking space without a permit’ and that was the evidence telling me I had done something wrong and that I should have appealed to them and/or to POPLA. I responded by telling her the statement was false, so I didn’t feel obliged to reply as I always had a permit.
She then went on to grill me about the sign. My argument was the signs were unclear in a dark car park. One of the photographs showed a picture of my car from behind with a sign around 2 metres away. I said I can barely read the sign, especially the part about a fine. If it clearly stated a figure like in Parking Eye Vs Beavis I’d understand but this was a joke. She then had the cheek to ask me to read a fire safety sign that was 1m away from me in the room. At this point I was getting attacked from every angle she could muster, and she wouldn’t give me a split second to get a word in. Most of it was rubbish to be fair. The judge then asked her to stop and proceeded to give judgement.
Regarding the first 5 tickets – the judge deemed that even if the signs were kind of clear, if the permit was on the dashboard, passenger seat or anywhere else in the vehicle – the fact that it was fob-controlled entry and I alongside all cars in the car park had a permit, it is up to the claimant to prove it wasn’t on display – and on this occasion, there is no proof of that so the claims were dismissed.
Regarding the final ticket - the judge said that even if the signage was clear and the loading bay was clearly defined – it would still make sense for me to park there to unload, hence the claim is also dismissed.
I asked if I could claim any costs. I had put £190 (10 hours) for researching and drafting all my paperwork as it did take me a very long time, and £15 for stationary/postage but the judge was frank and refused. For loss of earnings he asked my occupation and deemed the full £95 was adequate. I initially put £5 for parking but told the judge that it only cost me £4 and that mileage was negligible as I live near the court, thus a total of £99 in costs was awarded.
In the corridor, the claimant shook my hand and congratulated me. This time I did smile back. We discussed methods of payment and that was it, I could finally go back to the car and enjoy my chocolate! I was a little gutted when I realised I had picked up a plain Kit Kat Chunky by mistake instead of the Peanut Butter version, but it was nice nonetheless. Overall, a very good day which put me in a great mood after hours of stress and headache.
An interesting point I noticed was I saw the same woman talking to another defendant in the waiting room and overheard her saying she’s representing Parking Eye. It looks like all these bogus companies hire the same person to defend their cases in court.
I also noticed that none of my documents were referred to in court at all. I don't even know if the judge had received them as I sent most of them to courts/claimant via email without any reply of acknowledgement.
Prior to the case, forum users were stressing about how important the lease agreement of the apartment was due to primacy of contract. I tried everything to get in touch with the owner but to no avail and walked into court without the lease agreement. The judge dismissed the claims on common sense grounds more than any legal arguments I had.
needs any help with similar cases, I’d gladly try my best.
Background – 6 tickets issued over 4 years ago. 5 for parking in my own designated parking spot in the underground car park without my permit on the dashboard (it was on the passenger seat) and 1 for parking in a loading area that wasn’t marked as a loading area nor had any signage whatsoever. I revisited the site a few days before court and now there are plenty of signs by the loading bay. I didn’t put this in my defence or WS as I discovered it later but mentioned it in my skeleton argument and later in the court room, verbally.
My defence – fob-controlled car park with designated space so no reason to park unlawfully, no mention of fines in tenancy agreement, unclear signs in car park, no mention of displaying permit exclusively on dashboard, unclear photographs (literally all black squares) with no proof that I wasn’t displaying a permit.
Pre- court – ignored all mail from various companies until the claim letter. Responded with a good defence that I devised solely from these forums. Forgot to do the witness statement in the allocated time so sent it 7 days before court in the hope it would be accepted. I have no idea if it was or not. 3 days before – submitted skeleton argument, which was loosely based on my WS but without the multitude of photographs/evidence I had taken. Emailed schedule of costs a day before.
On the day – slight nerves, but quietly confident. Stopped at a shop to get change for parking beforehand as the last thing you want on the day is to forage for change and then have to run off and find a shop. Peanut Butter Kit Kat Chunky and an Aero Mint on offer – 2 for £1, was that a sign that it would be a good day? I had all my documents ready in a file, in order and labelled with coloured tabs so I could switch between them quickly. I also took all the documents the Claimant had submitted – including their 90 odd page witness statement which would turn out to be the key document in the court room.
Checked in around 30mins before my court time. UKPC hadn’t turned up yet. Couldn’t be bothered reading my notes as I just wanted it to be over and knew all my arguments quite well. Moments later, a lady was at the desk and they called my name – she came and introduced herself and was generally being very friendly, stated some obvious facts and asked if I had any questions. I wasn’t to be fooled. She was my enemy at this moment, so I wasn’t letting the smile and friendly demeanour fool me. A few minutes later, she approached me again with some general chit chat about my car and that she had the same model – I found this very strange that she’s trying to leach £1500 from me yet also trying to be my friend at the same time? I wasn’t having any of it but kept composed until she realised I didn’t really want to talk to her.
In the court room – the judge invited us in and asked us to sit down. It was like the board room in The Apprentice. I sat directly opposite the judge. He came across quite quickly as a very nice man. Began with questioning how it had taken 4 years to get to court. We immediately started talking about my side of the case.
We initially talked about how I had a permit like all residents, that it was a gated car park with access by fob only and how the permit was a small piece of card without adhesive. I mentioned that I would put it on the passenger seat whilst driving as it moved around on the dashboard and would put it on the dashboard once I parked up but being human – I or anyone else driving the car could occasionally forget. The judge was fine with this. He mentioned the shocking photographs in the claimants WS of the front of my car. The opposition agreed the photographs were terrible. She also agreed that I had a permit like all residents of the car park. The judge was clearly struggling to see why I had received so many penalties. The claimant said there was no permit visible. I said it was always visible and the parking attendant didn’t see it, or even CHOSE not to see it. From the look in her eyes and the change from friendliness to scorn – she knew I was talking about the doctoring of images by UKPC by which they were found guilty of a few years ago.
We then went on to discuss the final ticket – parking in a loading area. The underground car park had no lift to the ground floor. I had to go up a flight of metal stairs, across a courtyard that was decked with wood so could get slippery when wet, then into the building via the main entrance and up the lift to my apartment. Beside the main entrance – there was an embankment that had enough room for a car to park and enough room for a car to drive past at the same time. When carrying heavy items such as shopping bags, furniture etc, I would park in the embankment by the main entrance, unload the car and take the goods up to my apartment and then proceed to move the car back into the underground car park. It would be very difficult as well as a health and safety risk if I was to walk up the metal stairs and across the slippery, wet decking with large shopping bags. My child had only just learnt to walk at that time too so if she wanted picking up it would leave me with all sorts of problems. The sensible thing to do would be to park next to the entrance temporarily. The photos of the car are quite clear and show no parking signs. There is a parking sign on its own in the photographs, but it could be taken from anywhere. The claimant said, “the brick-work in the background is the same” with the judge replying, “it is the same throughout the whole building”. She then said the sign has a symbol of a lorry and that only lorries could park there to unload. I couldn’t even believe what she was saying. The timing between the first and last photo was only 8 minutes and I argued it would take me longer than 8 minutes to unload, take the contents up to my top floor apartment and come back down. Especially with a wandering child. By this point, myself and the judge were picking apart the claimant’s shambolic WS at will. Ultimately, they were the cause of their own downfall as all their “evidence” suggested I was in the right. I can’t believe such weak claims were submitted.
When it was the claimant’s turn to speak – she asked why I hadn’t responded to any mail or tickets attached to the windscreen. My response was brutally honest – “Like any legally untrained person would do, I Googled it and was told that I didn’t have to reply to such constant and harassing mail from fraudulent companies that I am not legally obliged to reply to”. I also didn’t feel the need to as the letters said I committed an offence, yet when I looked in the top corner of the letter for evidence (the photograph), all I could see was a black box. She then moved onto the actual ticket and how it said I had ‘parked in a designated parking space without a permit’ and that was the evidence telling me I had done something wrong and that I should have appealed to them and/or to POPLA. I responded by telling her the statement was false, so I didn’t feel obliged to reply as I always had a permit.
She then went on to grill me about the sign. My argument was the signs were unclear in a dark car park. One of the photographs showed a picture of my car from behind with a sign around 2 metres away. I said I can barely read the sign, especially the part about a fine. If it clearly stated a figure like in Parking Eye Vs Beavis I’d understand but this was a joke. She then had the cheek to ask me to read a fire safety sign that was 1m away from me in the room. At this point I was getting attacked from every angle she could muster, and she wouldn’t give me a split second to get a word in. Most of it was rubbish to be fair. The judge then asked her to stop and proceeded to give judgement.
Regarding the first 5 tickets – the judge deemed that even if the signs were kind of clear, if the permit was on the dashboard, passenger seat or anywhere else in the vehicle – the fact that it was fob-controlled entry and I alongside all cars in the car park had a permit, it is up to the claimant to prove it wasn’t on display – and on this occasion, there is no proof of that so the claims were dismissed.
Regarding the final ticket - the judge said that even if the signage was clear and the loading bay was clearly defined – it would still make sense for me to park there to unload, hence the claim is also dismissed.
I asked if I could claim any costs. I had put £190 (10 hours) for researching and drafting all my paperwork as it did take me a very long time, and £15 for stationary/postage but the judge was frank and refused. For loss of earnings he asked my occupation and deemed the full £95 was adequate. I initially put £5 for parking but told the judge that it only cost me £4 and that mileage was negligible as I live near the court, thus a total of £99 in costs was awarded.
In the corridor, the claimant shook my hand and congratulated me. This time I did smile back. We discussed methods of payment and that was it, I could finally go back to the car and enjoy my chocolate! I was a little gutted when I realised I had picked up a plain Kit Kat Chunky by mistake instead of the Peanut Butter version, but it was nice nonetheless. Overall, a very good day which put me in a great mood after hours of stress and headache.
An interesting point I noticed was I saw the same woman talking to another defendant in the waiting room and overheard her saying she’s representing Parking Eye. It looks like all these bogus companies hire the same person to defend their cases in court.
I also noticed that none of my documents were referred to in court at all. I don't even know if the judge had received them as I sent most of them to courts/claimant via email without any reply of acknowledgement.
Prior to the case, forum users were stressing about how important the lease agreement of the apartment was due to primacy of contract. I tried everything to get in touch with the owner but to no avail and walked into court without the lease agreement. The judge dismissed the claims on common sense grounds more than any legal arguments I had.
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Comments
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Super report of an excellent win. You certainly seemed to know your case well and boxed off the legal rep at every turn. Well done. :TPlease note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
It is appalling in my opinion that the judge refused to award you proper costs for all the time you had to spend on this matter fighting a well known fraudster. This is plain harassment of tenants/leaseholders by a management company and their scruffy poodle..
What does your lease/AST say about using a permit? Why do you need one if you have a fob? Why did the scammer require 90 pages to present their case?
I hope that you will be extracting revenge in some way or other. Raising the matter at the next AGM, claiming against UKPC for your time. At the very least complain to your MP, please watch this video.
http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41
Can you also name and shame the lady legal weasel?You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
redrabbit17
Amazing report and well done :beer:
You should be writing books, I was glued to this right to the end, made my sunday.
I sort of got the impression that the judge had already made his decision but just had to follow formalities to get SCSLaw/UKPC whooped.
The drip fed rent-a-lady legal is about all these companies can afford and to say about the fire safety sign, what a joke. Maybe her full time job is working for specsavers and she does court on her day off.
It just means that SCSLaw bring rubbish claims to court and should firstly get to grip with the UKPC scam
Brilliant0 -
Great result. You were very fortunate to get a "sensible" judge and not a nit picking out of touch one who seemed to live in a legal bubble that seemed divorced from reality.
Despite winning without needing the lease for prmacy, I would always recommend using this, if people can get a copy, in case you get the wrong kind of judge.0 -
Fantastic beating the filthy discusting scammers. :money:PPCs say its carpark management, BPA say its raising standards..... we all know its just about raking in the revenue. :eek:0
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Thanks for all the replies guys.
The scumbags were ordered by the courts to pay me costs by 16th November but I have yet to receive anything. After ignoring my email that had no goading or sarcasm in it whatsoever
I tried to ring and they said nobody from the "legal" team is available but they will call me back.
Is there any way they can be penalised by the courts for this delayed payment?0 -
redrabbit17 wrote: »Thanks for all the replies guys.
The scumbags were ordered by the courts to pay me costs by 16th November but I have yet to receive anything. After ignoring my email that had no goading or sarcasm in it whatsoever I tried to ring and they said nobody from the "legal" team is available but they will call me back.
Is there any way they can be penalised by the courts for this delayed payment?
Go to the court. Instruct bailiffs which I think costs £100 which they will claim back for you ... added to the debt.
The bailiffs will either collect full payment (including the £100) or seize goods
Go get these scammers
As the UKPC scammers read this forum, they may send a cheque in between times. You play the same game as the scammers, if bailiff action starts, "it's in the hands of the bailiffs now"0 -
I did as you suggest Beamer. Lying dentist did not pay. I went to DCBL paid £66 for a High Court writ, LD got it stayed as he claimed Court Service Civil Servants, FUBARed, I am now £66 out of pocket.
Have complained about DJ to Ombudsman, it will cost them £££s to buy whitewash.You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
I did as you suggest Beamer. Lying dentist did not pay. I went to DCBL paid £66 for a High Court writ, LD got it stayed as he claimed Court Service Civil Servants, FUBARed, I am now £66 out of pocket.
Have complained about DJ to Ombudsman, it will cost them £££s to buy whitewash.
Not really talking about High Court with this or even the TV stars DCBL.
County court bailiffs are quick and doubtful UKPC would play such a game ...... it would be big news for them and the BPA0 -
It is intolerable that landlords and their tenants are having to put up with this nonsense. The OP spent 19 hours fighting what all of us know is a scam but has nothing to show for it.
What is needed is a few stubborn residents/tenants prepared to counter claim for harassment under the Landlord and Tenants Acts.You never know how far you can go until you go too far.0
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