We’d like to remind Forumites to please avoid political debate on the Forum.
This is to keep it a safe and useful space for MoneySaving discussions. Threads that are – or become – political in nature may be removed in line with the Forum’s rules. Thank you for your understanding.
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING: Hello Forumites! In order to help keep the Forum a useful, safe and friendly place for our users, discussions around non-MoneySaving matters are not permitted per the Forum rules. While we understand that mentioning house prices may sometimes be relevant to a user's specific MoneySaving situation, we ask that you please avoid veering into broad, general debates about the market, the economy and politics, as these can unfortunately lead to abusive or hateful behaviour. Threads that are found to have derailed into wider discussions may be removed. Users who repeatedly disregard this may have their Forum account banned. Please also avoid posting personally identifiable information, including links to your own online property listing which may reveal your address. Thank you for your understanding.
📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!
Obtaining consent for extension in share of freehold
Comments
-
We still need clarification as to the memorandums and articles and what they state. Ultimately - as planning has already been granted (did the neighbour object?) - this is what will determine how this plays out.
I think your neighbour is acting very unreasonably and probably has no grounds to stop the extension based on the leases. However, if your attitude and replies on here are anything to go by, you have probably annoyed / confused them by not understanding the difference between leasehold / freehold, stating you own the garden and trying to suggest that the works are not structural when they clearly are.
Assuming the articles of association state that it is a majority decision, you need to get the requisite number of neighbours to agree to your plans at an EGM. Is there anything you can do in the communal areas to effectively bribe them (repaint, recarpet etc).0 -
We do, and we did from day 1.
As per the lawyer's comments to our case: "Having considered the reasons which the freehold (via Flat 2) have put forward I believe that those have been adequately addressed by you. On the balance, refusal based on ‘complications’, ‘damage’ etc are not reasonable explanations for refusing consent under clause 3(9). A refusal is deemed to be unreasonably when it is based on a pecuniary loss which can be compensated. Therefore, in circumstances where you and your partner have agreed to remedy any damage, and indemnify the freeholder and any neighbouring properties for damage, refusal to provide consent for this reason would be deemed unreasonable. "
What more can we do?
Already mentioned. Some or all of the following.- You can provide a contract to your neighbours warranting them against any legal costs so they agree with you and vote in favour and then start work and see if you are sued.
- You can sue your neighbours if they withhhold permission after this offer.
- You can start work without permission and see if you are sued (eg call their bluff)
You will probably end up with a block of four flats where the other three neighbours all hate you for various good reasons and over time t bad atmosphere may lead to you moving even if you "win"
You could end up with all four flats including yours being very difficult if not impossible to sell since there is a protracted legal battle going on.
Your choice as to which to take, it's you that want the extension. If you do nothing, nothing happens.
As an aside but I think it's relevant, if you wanted a bigger place, why on earth did you buy a smaller one which had specific and direct covenants against being extended ? This is all on you, don't try to pretend you are the injured party here, without you wishing to change everyone else's covenants there would be no problem.0 -
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That could be dealt with by a variation to the lease, making the leaseholder responsible for the repair and any extra insurance costs of the new structure.[/FONT]
OP has talked of indemnifting for damage but has not said anything about an offer to change the lease. And I suspect the leases apportion service charge by percentages so it is likely that all the leases would need to be changed. Unless OP is offering to pay for those changes then refusal of consent is likely to be deemed reasonable.0 -
Thank you for your kind solution focused approach...
This is exactly what i told them from the beginning... that we were held responsible for any potential damage; what wasn’t thought from their end is that whilst they were concerned about potential consequences (which we ended up acting on by removing all the structural work), we are the one presently dealing with the consequences of what was done before we moved in; the works we wanted to do were in response to the building survey, flood risk assessment etc, we never went extreme, we only intended to regive life to an old flat, hence to repair it as the survey said there wasnt one element that didnt need repair/replacement urgently and fewer non as urgent... the flat is so old and has been unhabited for over a year so we re scared of how winter could worsen the current state... we re in a high risk of flooding, in a basement full of cracks on the rear walls due to an older extension that was done to the entire block as well as the foundation’s state that’s affected by rain, we can’t move in the property, toilet’s broken, a part of the drainage’s broken, main door broken because the previous owner passed away and needed the police to break in; all the windows are locked, like there are so many elements already to our disadvantage and not only hasnt anyone showed compassion, they added more to our problems; i dreamt of becoming an interior design and my partner s just graduated from architecture so we thought we’d jump in and take the challenge; we thought the neighbours would be happy, but in the end all our good intentions went to waste, we compromised on everything to avoid conflicts and build good neighbours relationships and look where it’s lead us...
I happily accepted a green roof for them after telling them we had been told the terrace was not meeting planning requirements and would most likely be refused, so that we couldn’t afford going through another 2 months of application with the risk of having our entire application refused, which they initially understood. So she was happy with the green roof but changed her mind without telling me, and simply objecting to our plans just because they wanted a terrace. Considering their first objection was related to «!giving access to thieves!», I don’t see how a terrace would prevent that. I’m pretty sure they had that in mind for a long time and just use us to have it done. By using I’m saying yes, I did show some weakness at the beginning, ending up in tears when they told me we had to pay for their terrace and share the profit we make from all the renovations the day we resell it. They dared telling us «!you must have paid few for that flat since the owner passed away!» but no we didnt, not like they pictured, not to the point we can afford improving their property along with ours, paying all that money and putting all that effort, for them to take all the gain? When one other co freeholder who used to be friend with her admitted to me she didnt want to participate in the cost of repainting the facade of the building nor get involved in the organisation of the renovation of the common parts? They know i was happy to do the terrace at first, but we cant and that because of planning and I’m glad they raised those issues, thank god we didnt go ahead with the terrace, they’d be soooo present and we d have zero privacy. Would be different if we at least liked them like my current neighbours i give the keys to our flat to keep our rabbit when we’re away. Surely this will never happen now and it saddens me. Who wants enemies as neighbours? Surely I won’t think a single time about respect towards her; if we are allowed to make noise between 8:00am and 11:00pm then so be it. Who would be silly enough not to see that coming?
Oh and did i say we, and the engineer, are pretty sure the laminate flooring they recently installed isn’t sound deadening like the lease requires? How would that work out for her? Maybe thats something we can actually use in our defense.
On point 1 - If there are structural issues then that is down to the freehold company to repair. This should be reported and quotes obtained to fix it. This would mean a bill for everyone in the building. You might, perhaps, decide you were happy to remedy this for the sake of your fellow freeholders while doing your extension?
On point 2 - depending how aggressive you want to be, you could raise a complaint to the freehold company about contraventions to the lease (depending on what the lease says about floor coverings). Be careful though, because there might well be a clause about pets...0 -
SmashedAvacado wrote: »No, that's not the case Tom. On what basis have you concluded that?
Even where the lease contains an absolute covenant against alterations, and the landlord refuses to consider a tenant’s application for consent, the tenant may nonetheless have the right to carry out these alterations if they amount to “improvements”. This right is contained in section 3 of the 1927 Act and applies to all leases of property used for a “trade or business”.
https://www.bsdr.com/publication/consent-to-dealings-alterations-and-improvements-2/0 -
Oh and did i say we, and the engineer, are pretty sure the laminate flooring they recently installed isn’t sound deadening like the lease requires? How would that work out for her? Maybe that's something we can actually use in our defense.
Two wrongs dont make a right. You cant win in court by claiming "we should be allowed our extension because she has broken a different condition" !!
You could try a trade off, eg "give us permission or we will sue to have it removed" but basically you seem to have stumbled into a big ugly mess and most likely the best you can do is patch up whats there and then sell it and leave them to their own devices.Surely I won’t think a single time about respect towards her; if we are allowed to make noise between 8:00am and 11:00pm then so be it. Who would be silly enough not to see that coming?
As the person in the flat below that woudl be another battle you cant win, she will have much more scope to cause you nuisance than vice versa.
This is a battle you cant win even if you win. Tart the place up superficially, and get out.0 -
Even where the lease contains an absolute covenant against alterations, and the landlord refuses to consider a tenant’s application for consent, the tenant may nonetheless have the right to carry out these alterations if they amount to “improvements”. This right is contained in section 3 of the 1927 Act and applies to all leases of property used for a “trade or business”.
https://www.bsdr.com/publication/consent-to-dealings-alterations-and-improvements-2/
All good stuff but the issue is, its not who's right, its how much money and time in court it will take to get those rights, the chances they may still lose even if "right" (courts dont always make the right decisions) , and whether it will be a Pyrrhic victory even if they win. Would you want to live in a block of four flats where the other three neighbours hate you?0 -
you have probably annoyed / confused them by not understanding the difference between leasehold / freehold, stating you own the garden and trying to suggest that the works are not structural when they clearly are.
No we never told them anything about the leasehold/freehold; we got planning almost a month ago but still haven't told them nor shared our legal advice.. so far the talks have been quite subjective, and yes I do feel the other co-owners were tired to hear the debate going on with the flat objecting, hence why they stay out of it until we overrule her legal advice.. which we did, but I want to be safe, I don't want to act like her, I want us to find an agreement that works for all now that the terrace isn't negotiable anymore..
It is a majority decision yes, it even says every directors should be involved in conversations which we have been completely taken out from; we sent the plans and 4 days later, strict refusal, without giving any reason.... not sure that's how things should be done especially considering we hadn't gone through planning and could still make amendments and so on...Assuming the articles of association state that it is a majority decision, you need to get the requisite number of neighbours to agree to your plans at an EGM.
I wish... but they just finished renovating them all...Is there anything you can do in the communal areas to effectively bribe them (repaint, recarpet etc).
0 -
Even where the lease contains an absolute covenant against alterations, and the landlord refuses to consider a tenant’s application for consent, the tenant may nonetheless have the right to carry out these alterations if they amount to “improvements”. This right is contained in section 3 of the 1927 Act and applies to all leases of property used for a “trade or business”.
https://www.bsdr.com/publication/consent-to-dealings-alterations-and-improvements-2/
This is an article about commercial property. I am fairly certain that the legislation does not differentiate.0 -
SmashedAvacado wrote: »This is an article about commercial property. I am fairly certain that the legislation does not differentiate.
Oh yes! I did see that article too! That was when I realised they weren't being reasonable to refuse us consent when the flat wasn't habitable and works weren't negotiable internally..
Thanks a lot!
0
This discussion has been closed.
Confirm your email address to Create Threads and Reply
Categories
- All Categories
- 352.1K Banking & Borrowing
- 253.5K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
- 454.2K Spending & Discounts
- 245.1K Work, Benefits & Business
- 600.7K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
- 177.4K Life & Family
- 258.9K Travel & Transport
- 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
- 16.2K Discuss & Feedback
- 37.6K Read-Only Boards