Repayment of training fees

PKKKK

Hi all,

I'l try to keep this brief as I can see there have been many posts similar to this but none exactly the same and I would like very specific advise if possible.

I have recently (July) left an employer whom I signed a training agreement that would enable me to gain a qualification. Standard training agreement - if you leave within X months pay X amount, Y months pay Y amount and so on. When I signed the contract I had fully intended on staying with the company for at least the minimum time needed to complete the course and not owe them any money.

During my time there I was a victim to belittling, derogatory comments and a very poisonous workplace environment; one which ground me down and educe me to tears most evenings. I brought this up a with managers and was on more than a few occasions went to managers upset after not being able to take it anymore.

I am a very strong character and have worked in different countries, sectors, companies etc and have never been made to feel how they made me feel. The problems built up over the course of the year and eventually I handed my notice in.

They asked me to do an exit survey which I did and was 100% professional but honest. I then had to meet with HR to discuss this further, during this meeting my fees were brought up (3000 GBP) and it was during this meeting (July) that I told HR I would be contesting having to pay these fees given the fact that I feel that I am forced to leave to keep improve and prioritise my mental well being. I felt like I had 2 options: 1. stay and have my mental well being and home life suffer further (working off my fees for a further 2 years) or 2. leave, put my mental well being first but face having massive fees to pay back. I felt so stuck.

From here I then informally met with the partner and went through the exit survey again... he then explained that if i wanted to take this further we would need to go through it all AGAIN in a more formal manner (with the same guy and the same HR person, but just in a different room and that the HR person would be taking notes). I did this at the end of July, continued to be professional but fully honest to ensure they could see just how much the people in the office have damaged both me and other employees. Also so that they would know for future and current employees, so they would not have to endure/ further endure what I had been through.

After I left (end of July) they wrote saying they were not going to uphold this grievance and gave a list of wishy washy response to mine, without giving any kind of remorse for what I had been through. I then appealed this decision again (September).

I was then invited to head office for another meeting revising all that had been said with another partner and different HR person. I went over everything again, being honest but professional.

I have recently received a letter saying that they are still not upholding grievance, stating that she doesn't think that what I went through was a good enough reason to leave (a comment that I am truly shocked by, considering how down trodden and low I was when I left), among other things.

They have also written stating that by Nov they want to know how I will be repaying them - in full or 250 per month. I am currently working on an agency type wage - my income is sporadic and can go from 400 one month to 900 the next.

1. I would like to know, if I continue to appeal/ refuse to pay it what could the next step be?

2. In the contract it does not state when or how the payment needs to be paid just how much in terms of sliding scale. Can they enforce the 12 month repayment thing?

3. Can I ask for a compromise? (I feel very strongly about not paying it all as a I felt like due to the work environment and belittling I had to leave and therefore had no choice but to have to pay for fees; in addition to this no remorse or anything has been shown for what I have been through during my time at the office.)

I am looking for helpful answers and comments - please heed the age old advice - if you have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all.

Thank you for your time in reading this; I hope someone can offer some advice.

Kindest regards

PKKKK

P.S sorry about the length - trust me, this was brief in comparison to the appeal letters.

antrobus

PKKKK wrote: »

...
1. I would like to know, if I continue to appeal/ refuse to pay it what could the next step be?...

Small claims court. CCJ.

PKKKK wrote: »

...
2. In the contract it does not state when or how the payment needs to be paid just how much in terms of sliding scale. Can they enforce the 12 month repayment thing?..

The '12 month repayment thing' is them trying to be nice. You can make a counter offer on the basis of 'what you can afford, or whatever.

PKKKK wrote: »

...
3. Can I ask for a compromise? (I feel very strongly about not paying it all as a I felt like due to the work environment and belittling I had to leave and therefore had no choice but to have to pay for fees; in addition to this no remorse or anything has been shown for what I have been through during my time at the office.)
.

What do you mean by a compromise? Do you mean something like paying only half?

How you feel is not that relevant in law.

You could claim constructive dismissal.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/leaving-a-job/dismissal/claiming-constructive-dismissal/

But you "can only usually claim constructive dismissal if you’re classed as an employee and have worked for your employer for at least 2 years".

sangie595

Let me give you a shorter version. It's the one that will stand up to scrutiny. Which yours won't, true or not.

"PKKKK is claiming that they were bullied out of their job. None of this was ever mentioned until they were told that they must repay training that we paid for, and they didn't want to pay. It's fiction".

You have no chance of constructive unfair dismissal, and if they take this to court they will win. So you either come to some form of agreement with them or you take the risk that they will take enforcement action.

Comms69

PKKKK wrote: »

Hi all,

I'l try to keep this brief as I can see there have been many posts similar to this but none exactly the same and I would like very specific advise if possible.

I have recently (July) left an employer whom I signed a training agreement that would enable me to gain a qualification. Standard training agreement - if you leave within X months pay X amount, Y months pay Y amount and so on. When I signed the contract I had fully intended on staying with the company for at least the minimum time needed to complete the course and not owe them any money.

During my time there I was a victim to belittling, derogatory comments and a very poisonous workplace environment - so you raised a grievance, saw it through etc?; one which ground me down and educe me to tears most evenings. I brought this up a with managers and was on more than a few occasions went to managers upset after not being able to take it anymore. - but did you make a formal complaint. what were the incidents?

I am a very strong character and have worked in different countries, sectors, companies etc and have never been made to feel how they made me feel. The problems built up over the course of the year and eventually I handed my notice in.

They asked me to do an exit survey which I did and was 100% professional but honest. I then had to meet with HR to discuss this further, during this meeting my fees were brought up (3000 GBP) and it was during this meeting (July) that I told HR I would be contesting having to pay these fees given the fact that I feel that I am forced to leave to keep improve and prioritise my mental well being. I felt like I had 2 options: 1. stay and have my mental well being and home life suffer further (working off my fees for a further 2 years) or 2. leave, put my mental well being first but face having massive fees to pay back. I felt so stuck. - And you chose 2.

From here I then informally met with the partner and went through the exit survey again... he then explained that if i wanted to take this further we would need to go through it all AGAIN in a more formal manner (with the same guy and the same HR person, but just in a different room and that the HR person would be taking notes). I did this at the end of July, continued to be professional but fully honest to ensure they could see just how much the people in the office have damaged both me and other employees. Also so that they would know for future and current employees, so they would not have to endure/ further endure what I had been through.

After I left (end of July) they wrote saying they were not going to uphold this grievance and gave a list of wishy washy response to mine, without giving any kind of remorse for what I had been through. I then appealed this decision again (September). - But at this point you had left?

I was then invited to head office for another meeting revising all that had been said with another partner and different HR person. I went over everything again, being honest but professional. - You keep saying honest but professional. No idea what that means

I have recently received a letter saying that they are still not upholding grievance, stating that she doesn't think that what I went through was a good enough reason to leave (a comment that I am truly shocked by, considering how down trodden and low I was when I left), among other things. - Cant comment, no idea why you left

They have also written stating that by Nov they want to know how I will be repaying them - in full or 250 per month. I am currently working on an agency type wage - my income is sporadic and can go from 400 one month to 900 the next.

1. I would like to know, if I continue to appeal/ refuse to pay it what could the next step be? - I imagine court action

2. In the contract it does not state when or how the payment needs to be paid just how much in terms of sliding scale. Can they enforce the 12 month repayment thing? - Well they can claim the full amount tomorrow if you prefer

3. Can I ask for a compromise? (I feel very strongly about not paying it all as a I felt like due to the work environment and belittling I had to leave and therefore had no choice but to have to pay for fees; in addition to this no remorse or anything has been shown for what I have been through during my time at the office.) - You can ask for a Ferrari if you want; but I suspect they will refuse any of your requests

I am looking for helpful answers and comments - please heed the age old advice - if you have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all. - I don't think nice comments are going to help you

Thank you for your time in reading this; I hope someone can offer some advice.

Kindest regards

PKKKK

P.S sorry about the length - trust me, this was brief in comparison to the appeal letters.

Yes, pay them back. Unless you fancy getting a CCJ

TBagpuss

1. I would like to know, if I continue to appeal/ refuse to pay it what could the next step be?

They could take you to court to enforce the debt, in which case you could end up with a CCJ against you, and may also have to pay interest on the debt, and court fees.

2. In the contract it does not state when or how the payment needs to be paid just how much in terms of sliding scale. Can they enforce the 12 month repayment thing?

They could demand it in full straight away. The 12 months is a reasonable compromise which they are offering you.

3. Can I ask for a compromise? (I feel very strongly about not paying it all as a I felt like due to the work environment and belittling I had to leave and therefore had no choice but to have to pay for fees; in addition to this no remorse or anything has been shown for what I have been through during my time at the office.)

The 12 months to pay in instalments is already a compromise. Yes, of course you can make a further counter proposal but the bottom line is that they have investigated your grievance and id not uphold it, so you don't have a leg to stand on.

Had you raised a formal grievance before you resigned? From your post, it doesn't sound as though you had (and it can be very difficult for an employer to take action if the person complaining is not willing to do so formally)

sangie595

TBagpuss wrote: »

Had you raised a formal grievance before you resigned? From your post, it doesn't sound as though you had (and it can be very difficult for an employer to take action if the person complaining is not willing to do so formally)

It is also, to be clear, irrelevant. Unless the training agreement specified conditions under which it isn't enforceable - such as, often, compulsory redundancy - then it is enforceable. I'm sure they'll be an outcry about this not being fair, but unless a training agreement does specify the excluding for compulsory redundancy, it is still enforceable and the money can be deducted from redundancy payments or otherwise enforced. So it totally doesn't mastery whether the OP had a good reason for leaving or not, and whether they can evidence that good reason. The training agreement, once entered into, is an enforceable legal agreement and you cannot decide you won't abide by it for any reason, no matter how good you think it may be.

PKKKK

Hi all,

Thanks for the advice. I did not complain formally whilst in employment but had 2 or 3 meetings RE: the person(s) mentioned, the lack or support and the poor structure of training (all of which I have mentioned and elaborated on further throughout my appeal).

I understand that 'feelings' don't come into it with the law - but there is legislation about mental health in the work place and how employers have a responsibility to take all steps reasonably possible to ensure employees well being. Therefore, allowing associates/ partners to belittle members of staff to the extent where they are constantly nervous around them is not ok. I also was not the first person to leave due to this and despite it being brought up by a few other employees over the course of a year or two, the person at hand was never spoken to about it and therefore it has continued to happen.

I have concluded from the advice and comments in this thread that I should just accept that it is a poor workplace and move past the fact that my mental health was affected badly whilst I was there. So the next step is repayment. I really do not want to have to go to court (I don't think I could handle being around the partners etc again, having worked extremely hard on re-building my self-confidence since leaving.)

What would be your recommendations in terms of next steps? I cannot physically afford very much per month - I am working ad hoc sporadic hours. With my mortgage, bills etc I need at least 800GBP per month - some months I barely scrape this and others I can bring home 1200GBP maximum. What would be your suggestions?

I appreciate some of you are very black and white on this and think that someone should just stick it out if you have signed an agreement - you are very entitled to your opinion; however I am here to get advice and given everything that I have been through (which you will never know the extent of) I would really appreciate no unnecessary unkind comments. Thank you.

PKKKK

sangie595 wrote: »

It is also, to be clear, irrelevant. Unless the training agreement specified conditions under which it isn't enforceable - such as, often, compulsory redundancy - then it is enforceable. I'm sure they'll be an outcry about this not being fair, but unless a training agreement does specify the excluding for compulsory redundancy, it is still enforceable and the money can be deducted from redundancy payments or otherwise enforced. So it totally doesn't mastery whether the OP had a good reason for leaving or not, and whether they can evidence that good reason. The training agreement, once entered into, is an enforceable legal agreement and you cannot decide you won't abide by it for any reason, no matter how good you think it may be.

Thank you I can see where you are coming from despite not agreeing morally. But as you say feelings don't matter.

Thank you for taking the time to comment :-)

robatwork

You owe them X or Y.

Your best bet is to ask them for a payment plan. Don't waste your or a tribunal's time with a vexatious claim.

Undervalued

PKKKK wrote: »

What would be your recommendations in terms of next steps? I cannot physically afford very much per month - I am working ad hoc sporadic hours. With my mortgage, bills etc I need at least 800GBP per month - some months I barely scrape this and others I can bring home 1200GBP maximum. What would be your suggestions?

I appreciate some of you are very black and white on this and think that someone should just stick it out if you have signed an agreement - you are very entitled to your opinion; however I am here to get advice and given everything that I have been through (which you will never know the extent of) I would really appreciate no unnecessary unkind comments. Thank you.

Well the bottom line is that if they take you to court and win (as seems likely) you will be ordered to pay at a rate that the judge thinks you can afford. You may well find that he takes a very tight view on what monthly expenditure is absolutely necessary.

So you need to make a realistic offer and be prepared to justify it. If it is realistic the employer will likely accept rather than have the hassle of a court case.

Just one further point. As others have said training fee agreements, properly drafted, are enforceable but the amount needs to be reasonable and proportionate. So if the employer has derived some benefit from what they have paid then this needs to be reflected in how much is owed. The would not be able to enforce an amount that was in effect a penalty rather than a true reflection of their losses.

Samsung_Note2

Could you elaborate on this ""During my time there I was a victim to belittling, derogatory comments and a very poisonous workplace environment; one which ground me down and educe me to tears most evenings. I brought this up a with managers and was on more than a few occasions went to managers upset after not being able to take it anymore.""

Obviously being reduced to tears after work and going to managers in tears sounds like you must have been working in a living hell.

But what environment..are you in the Army and working in a combat situation or Working in a hostile environment such as a Night club doorman or an office with people milling about who are called Geoffrey...Arthur and Joanne the receptionist.

Only ask as the environment you work in with have a huge bearing on how you perceive bullying...im a security manager and id probably be labelled a bully by some,straight talking by others and as a snowflake according to my boss.

Genuinely interested in why you feel bullied,which you may well be.