Company PCN within 21days

teccom

Hi all,

We recieved a PCN initially photocopied to us from our lease company (with a nice £18 charge), naturally I know the lease company would provide our company details as the "hirer" and in turn we would eventually recieve a letter from the PPC direct, and at such time I would look on here.


Anyway looking to NEWBIES section I straight away went to the advice setion namely Edna Bashers commercial ABC LTD letters.

Details:- (basic to US after lease co sent our details, time obscured to afternoon)
London Parking Solutions via PCN Parking Solutions BN52
To OUR COMPANY LTD (and address)
Date of posting: 02/10/18 (recieved by us 4th)
VRN - correct
location - correct
Time of issue of notice to driver = 17/09/18 in AFTERNOON (no screen ticket altho this implies there is)
Admin charge = NIL
Total amount = £60
Reason for issue = No valid permit on display

A parking charge notice was issued to the above vehicle, VRM XYZ because it was parked on a private property on the dates and times shown above and the reason for issue was namely: No valid permit on display

The driver, must now pay £100, 21days blah blah.

We have been informed by the registered keeper of the above mentioned vehicle that you were the hirer at the time of the parking event. the T&Cs, to which the blah blah signs throughout the location.

Please note this a PCN not fine blah blah.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO HIRER
Relying on Sect4 PoFA blah

END

Its identical to others forum posters recieved from same back office, namely PCN Parking Solutions.
No evidence with PCN above, but signing in their site paymypcn.net shows some terrible pics, photostamped day later at the earlier hours of the morning not the afternoon of the "alleged event".

Anyway looking at the company response suggested by Edna and CouponMad, the argument on PoFA and on the NEWBIE page appear to be related to the 21days and looking at a few posts some PPL have recieved their PCN 30odd and plus days later, ours from "event" date to recieving PCN ourselves is 15, 17days if you allow 2 days postage.


However I noted on other posts PoFA requires some sort of evidence to also be submitted to comply, so is the 21days window not being an argument NULL and the argument is they havent furnished evidence in the same mail (website portal aside) as stated here:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/69377839#Comment_69377839
QUOTE
The NtK does not even explain whether a Parking Charge Notice was issued to the driver at the time of the alleged incident (in which case Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 would apply) or whether CEL is seeking to rely upon photographic evidence captured by ANPR cameras (in which case Schedule 4, Paragraph 9 would apply).
END-QUOTE

In addition I note mention of furnishing of "relevant hire documents" as a requirement here:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/70898260#Comment_70898260
QUOTE
Of course, there are other reasons why the Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA, not least because New Generation will not have included all of the relevant hire documents required under Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of POFA.
END-QUOTE

So perhaps I need a slightly modified version of version of Ednas:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5881338/pcn-for-lease-car-vehicle#7

Post pointed to in NEWBIES 2018 update, stating the 2 above points?

The company is IPC dodgy mob and I understand my employee literally nipped in to use the loo of a restaurant where the ticket was issued but not bothered about that and think it should be dealt with at company level rather than passing on the driver details.

Any input and thanks in advance

teccom

little bump

As no replies, any advice?

Umkomaas

teccom wrote: »

little bump

As no replies, any advice?

It's an IPC parking operator, so just send the Edna Basher initial appeal template, which will be rejected. No further appeal to the IAS.

Wait to see if LPS issue court proceedings in order to try to recover a £100 charge. Will they? Possibly:

http://www.parkingappeals.info/companydata/London_Parking_Solutions.html

Save the PoFA technicalities for the Judge as LPS are unlikely to understand them, and even if they did, will not cancel the charge, regardless of any PoFA non-compliance.

teccom

Thanks mate,

I will do and you make a good point they wont care to understand, I had a case where I had to show the Judge the PoFA to get her to realise they had no right to pursue me, and on that fact she threw it out, but hit me with court costs because I never mentioned it in my defence.

Wont that mistake again.

For a thread update for anyone else asking I received some helpful advice on Pepipoo answering the particulars:

Quote-
To summarise:

In order to hold a vehicle Hirer liable they must comply with POFA2012 sched 4 para 14
Thatr requires a copy of the original lease or hire documents to be sent WITH the Notice to Hirer, and must be done within 21 days
if they did not do so - and to my knowlegde, NO ppc manages to do so - then that is a slam dunk unarguable point of failure to engage Hirer liabilty under POFA
End quote--

From this reply I checked my copy of the PoFA and basically para14(1-a) requires para13(2-abc) which they have nudging liability from lease co to hirer, but the creditor PPC has to under para14(2-a) furnish a copy of these documents from the lease co!

AND further more...

para14(2-b) within 21days, on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed!

So begs the question should I wait until 21days from "Time of issue" i.e. event, or date of posting to me which is stamped on their PCN.

I don't want to give them time to furnish this, but assuming it is from "Time of issue/event", then they wont have time now anyway to meet 21days..

Shoppingallday

Hi
I am in the same situation as you, what letter did you send in the end and how did you get on.
Thanks

Coupon-mad

They sent the template for lease/hire cars:

Anyway looking to NEWBIES section I straight away went to the advice setion namely Edna Bashers commercial ABC LTD letters.

You are not in the same situation, unless yours was also a company/hire car.

The advice about the right template appeal to use (company/hire car, or not) is in the NEWBIES thread, and for obvious reasons when you read my signature below, no new poster needs me to give a link to that sticky thread at the top of the forum!

You have your 'link' at the top of every page in the breadcrumb trail.

Shoppingallday

Yes mine is a lease car, so I believe I am in the same situation.


I have read the newbies thread several times, I have read all the acronyms several times and must admit to being a little bamboozled so just wanted to check I was sending the right letter, hence I asked the question! I think I am nervous as I don't understand all of the letter content


I also wanted to make sure I am doing the right thing by sending it via email on day 21,

Coupon-mad

You need to start your own thread and tell us more about the PCN, the car park, the parking firm, and whether you have a windscreen PCN or a Notice to Hirer now addressed to you?

Shoppingallday

will do - thanks

teccom

UPDATE AS REQUESTED

ON PCN:-

I sent the intial Edna Basher appeal template, so they rejected (as expected) and then pushed the threat to our company via their legal providers CSB Solicitors, whom I fowarded the same letter with reiteration of:-

"Any further communication with us on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and our details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment"

And they responded via UCS legal, how many of these shell legal bounce-arounds are there !!!!!!, anyway they effectively responded as:-

START
We have been instructed by our Client to respond to your recent communication sent to CSB Solicitors.

In order that we may amend the liability on this account and remove your details, please provide us with a full serviceable name and address for the material driver.

Once we are in receipt of this information, the account will be amended to reflect the amendments.

Regards
UCS Legal Department
END


Which as far as I am concerned is the end of, but I have since had an another reminder from the ORIGINAL PPC company warning me of legal action, which makes you laugh, they have barked that tree, so why start again, unfortunately the secretary here shredded that letter, where as I insist we scan first to prove harrassment should we need to counter claim at a later date.

The UCS legal response for me I also find cheeky, after all it is a response to Ednas letter which:-
A. Sets out they have failed to abide by the very act PoFA and therefore they cannot hold us accountable.
B. Clearly states we will not be identifying the driver as no obligation is legally required.

So go away!


Finally, we do have an on-going issue with LeasePlan for the £18 charge which I will in time update on the other relevant thread.

Thanks to everyones help on this, and we have now successfully used the Edna response with other PPC's.