Wooden floor

Legacy_user

Heya,

My partner and I have moved into our new flat a few weeks ago. It's a flat within a Victorian house. We're in a freehold, but because there are 3 flats within the whole house, we have an LTD set up and a lease. It's a bit tricky because it makes it unclear who is the leaseholder in our case.

We want to put a wooden floor in our living room and kitchen (currently carpet and tiles). There's already insulation but we want to add more (or put a better one) to make sure it doesn't get noisy downstairs. We've met with our neighbors and clearly, they ain't keen on it. We understand the first reaction and said we would include them in the conversation with our floor guys. We're open to put good quality insulation but it feels they just have their minds set.

Our lease is unclear. It says that we can't make any structural change without lesser consent (but who is it in our case) nor a change that causes nuisance or annoyance. Would a wooden floor count as a nuisance? Is there a legal limit to what is a nuisance (e.g decibels)?

Again, we're keen on being collaborative and understanding but feel we might end up in a dead end and want to know what are the legalities in this case...

davidmcn

JoceT wrote: »

It says that we can't make any structural change without lesser consent (but who is it in our case)

Lessor = freeholder i.e. the limited company.

Would a wooden floor count as a nuisance?

Not inherently, no.

Is there a legal limit to what is a nuisance (e.g decibels)?

No. Are you going to make it noisier for them? If so by how much?

Brock_and_Roll

JoceT wrote: »

Heya,

My partner and I have moved into our new flat a few weeks ago. It's a flat within a Victorian house. We're in a freehold, but because there are 3 flats within the whole house, we have an LTD set up and a lease. It's a bit tricky because it makes it unclear who is the leaseholder in our case.

We want to put a wooden floor in our living room and kitchen (currently carpet and tiles). There's already insulation but we want to add more (or put a better one) to make sure it doesn't get noisy downstairs. We've met with our neighbors and clearly, they ain't keen on it. We understand the first reaction and said we would include them in the conversation with our floor guys. We're open to put good quality insulation but it feels they just have their minds set.

Our lease is unclear. It says that we can't make any structural change without lesser consent (but who is it in our case) nor a change that causes nuisance or annoyance. Would a wooden floor count as a nuisance? Is there a legal limit to what is a nuisance (e.g decibels)?

Again, we're keen on being collaborative and understanding but feel we might end up in a dead end and want to know what are the legalities in this case...

I think you are setting yourself up for a long term deterioration of relations with your neighbours and possible action by them.

From my experience, no matter what guff you get from wooden floor installers (and of course they have an incentive to play down noise issues) no amount of insulation techniques (very expensive) really reduces the noise level that much - and I would imaging that in a victorian house with high ceilings, large rooms etc the noise potentially will be considerable.

In my first flat the neighbour above installed insulation etc but at night I could work out which of the couple above was going to the toilet....so you can imagine what else I has to listen to as the wooden floor seemed to make "conversations" more audible not just footsteps!

AdrianC

JoceT wrote: »

My partner and I have moved into our new flat a few weeks ago. It's a flat within a Victorian house. We're in a freehold, but because there are 3 flats within the whole house, we have an LTD set up and a lease. It's a bit tricky because it makes it unclear who is the leaseholder in our case.

You own two things...

1. You own a leasehold flat. You are the leaseholder.

2. You own a share in a company that owns the freehold for the building that contains that flat. The limited company is the freeholder. The shareholdings may be weighted by size of flat.

We want to put a wooden floor in our living room and kitchen (currently carpet and tiles). There's already insulation but we want to add more (or put a better one) to make sure it doesn't get noisy downstairs. We've met with our neighbors and clearly, they ain't keen on it. We understand the first reaction and said we would include them in the conversation with our floor guys. We're open to put good quality insulation but it feels they just have their minds set.

What does your lease for the flat say?
If it makes no mention of flooring, then there's no outright bar on it. If it requires the freeholder's permission, then you have a vote, as do your neighbours. There's two of them and one of you. The votes may be weighted by shareholding.

However, it's massively unlikely NOT to mention causing a noise nuisance - so you'd better be sure about the underlay...

Our lease is unclear. It says that we can't make any structural change without lesser consent (but who is it in our case)

Lessor = freeholder. But this isn't a structural change. A structural change is removing walls.

nor a change that causes nuisance or annoyance.

And there it is...

Would a wooden floor count as a nuisance?

It may, if it causes a nuisance.

Is there a legal limit to what is a nuisance (e.g decibels)?

No. A nuisance is a nuisance. If the neighbours are annoyed by hearing you on the wooden floor, but wouldn't be able to hear you on a carpet, then the wooden floor is causing a nuisance.

Again, we're keen on being collaborative and understanding but feel we might end up in a dead end and want to know what are the legalities in this case...

The legality is that your lease says you can't cause a nuisance to your neighbours. Or them to you...

System

Ideally, we actually would love to make it less noisy. The current insulation is pretty poor and even inexistant in the kitchen (tiles). I understand that carpet absorbs a lot of the noise, but the kitchen would become more efficient as we would improve insulation.

System

Thank you for your answer. We want to be sensible and truly consider options on the table.
The actual lease states:
Not without the consent in writing of the lessor or the surveyor to the lessor (which should not be unreasonnably withheld to non-structural internal alterations) to make any alteration whatsoever to the plan esign or elevation of the flat nor make any openings therein nor open up any floors walls or ceillings or any other part of the flat for the purpuse of altering any pipes wires ducts sewers drains conduits or channels which serve y other part of the property or as a consequence of which any nuisance or annoyance may be cause to the occupant or any other part of the property.

In another part, it says:
Not at any time to allow musical instrument radio set or television to play or operate in a manner audible outside the property and to carpet or insulate the Flat in a manner effectively to prevent undue noise and to take all reasonable steps and precautions to prevent smells and odours

knightstyle

Have a look at imitation wood vinyl. The expensive ones are very good and you can put sound insulation under them.
Wood, always makes noise when walked on when wearing shoes.

Doozergirl

Victorian conversions of a certain age are notorious for being of poor quality. Our first flat, when we lifted the carpet, we could see into downstairs though the holes for their light fittings. That's how the houses were built. A bit of plasterboard on the ceilings kills virtually no sound at all. As for fireproofing...

Your neighbour already has experience of living there and will already know what they can hear. They may feel it's absolutely obvious that if they can already hear things that it will become far worse and rightfully be worried you can't improve the situation by installing something that is widely recognised as being a nuisance if it isn't installed with that in mind. As said above, something is a nuisance if it is a nuisance!

If you do this, it needs more than floor fitters involvement and needs some proper acoustic insulation between the boards and something to deaden vibration between your boards and the joists.

An acoustic specialist might be helpful in your situation. Probably cheaper than ripping the floor up and definitely worth maintaining neighbour relationships.

There is an "In My Home" board and perhaps people there may know how you insulate effectively. It isn't something I've had to do.

Doozergirl

knightstyle wrote: »

Have a look at imitation wood vinyl. The expensive ones are very good and you can put sound insulation under them.
Wood, always makes noise when walked on when wearing shoes.

They also sit on a nice layer of plywood. It isn't going to be a solution on its own.

AdrianC

JoceT wrote: »

The actual lease states:
Not without the consent in writing of the lessor or the surveyor to the lessor (which should not be unreasonably withheld to non-structural internal alterations) to make any alteration whatsoever to the plan (d?)esign or elevation of the flat nor make any openings therein nor open up any floors walls or ceilings or any other part of the flat for the purpose of altering any pipes wires ducts sewers drains conduits or channels which serve any other part of the property or as a consequence of which any nuisance or annoyance may be cause to the occupant or any other part of the property.

All that is totally non-applicable to changing the flooring material - it doesn't count as "the design of the flat", and you aren't changing the plan or elevation. You aren't opening up any floors/walls/ceilings/other part to footle about with the common plumbing or electrics or vents. You might be viewed as causing a nuisance or annoyance, but the wording seems to make that subordinate to changing the plan/design/elevation.


However, there's bound to be another clause covering general nuisance/annoyance...

And you don't want to be that neighbour, anyway, do you?

System

Hi AdrianC,

Thanks for your reply. Although the "that" feels pretty passive aggressive or patronizing, I genuinely appreciate that you take time to answer.

We do not want to be the stubborn neighbors that disturb people, no. But, I hope they don't want to be "that" neighbors (as you say) who oppose the change on the base of routine. If there is more disturbance (determined by professionals), we would not go ahead. But I think it's reasonable to investigate it before shutting it down. I know those discussions get quite emotional but I hope that by keeping the convo open and getting professionals to talk to both parties we can find a compromise.

As mentioned above, the only other part of the lease mentioning floor states:
"Not at any time to allow musical instrument radio set or television to play or operate in a manner audible outside the property and to carpet or insulate the Flat in a manner effectively to prevent undue noise and to take all reasonable steps and precautions to prevent smells and odors"

All we are trying to understand is that in the case there is a dead end despite the insulation improving their situation, could we go ahead.
Again, appreciate the detailed answer! Thanks all!