problem with step mother and my late fathers will

lovemelovemyshoes

Marcon wrote: »

I think you might be looking for something which doesn't exist.

See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/registered-titles-whole-transfer-tr1/guidance-completing-form-tr1-for-the-transfer-of-registered-property and read section 3.10. The following paragraph seems particularly relevant:

'If the joint transferees intend to hold the property on trust for themselves alone as joint tenants, they should place an ‘X’ in the first box. Alternatively, if they intend to hold the beneficial interest as tenants in common in equal shares, they should place an ‘X’ in the second box. They should place an ‘X’ in the third box if they intend to hold it in unequal shares, or for themselves and others (whether in equal or unequal shares), or under the terms of a separate existing trust deed or will, and in each case they should also add the relevant details.'

definitely ticked the 3rd box and underneath thats where it says about the deed. I believe he has protected the money he put into the house maybe not an equal share but never the less at least it looks like hes tried to protect it. It seems to be all coming out now day by day I find some more information out

Brynsam

lovemelovemyshoes wrote: »

she had the house before she met him and i know he had money when he met her and they did a lot of maintenance work on it so i presume that she let him buy into her house. She had cleared all of his things out , we live in a small town and she doesnt know that i know someone that can give me a lot of info as to what is going on around the house.

Its just all bizarre i am convinced that he has protected the money he put into the house or else why do it? she had a negative equity house when he met her. Its been 5 months now and not gone to probate but the more i find out especially about being tenants in common etc she will one day need probate . Thankfully we cannot afford solicitors ... I am in uni and my brother has just bought a house but my mother will help us if need be.

I think you're letting your imagination (and hopes) run away with you. You say in your first post that 'it's not about money' but it so obviously is.

Why do it? She owned the house (albeit in negative equity at some point) and allowed your father to have his name put on the deeds. The fact that he spent money on his home is hardly unusual. Get a solicitor to have a look - one appointment to check out the form and whether it relates purely to holding in unequal shares might settle the matter.

TcpnT

As they weren't joint tenants than your dad's share of the property has to be left to someone in his will as it wouldn't automatically go to the joint owner. I do think that means probate would be needed though, which could help you to see the will eventually.

I'm sure I read recently on these boards that it is possible to transfer a share of a property held as tenants in common between spouses after the first death without obtaining probate. Pretty sure this was stated by the Land Registry rep on the property board. It may be that the will left his share to her and she has been able to transfer the title into her sole name without probate.

Tom99

TcpnT wrote: »

I'm sure I read recently on these boards that it is possible to transfer a share of a property held as tenants in common between spouses after the first death without obtaining probate. Pretty sure this was stated by the Land Registry rep on the property board. It may be that the will left his share to her and she has been able to transfer the title into her sole name without probate.

You are right, Land Reg Rep said that on 30th May

Kynthia

lovemelovemyshoes wrote: »

definitely ticked the 3rd box and underneath thats where it says about the deed. I believe he has protected the money he put into the house maybe not an equal share but never the less at least it looks like hes tried to protect it. It seems to be all coming out now day by day I find some more information out

I'm not sure how you think he's protected his share? All you've found is evidence that he bought a share of the property and they owned as tenants in common. Nothing else I'm afraid.

Your only hope is that the will left you something, but rather than believe he didn't you believe his wife is deceiving you. That might be the case and it might not. I don't know what you can do about that without any evidence.

Is there a way to put a stop on any transfer of ownership Or disposal of the property?

lovemelovemyshoes

Kynthia wrote: »

I'm not sure how you think he's protected his share? All you've found is evidence that he bought a share of the property and they owned as tenants in common. Nothing else I'm afraid.

Your only hope is that the will left you something, but rather than believe he didn't you believe his wife is deceiving you. That might be the case and it might not. I don't know what you can do about that without any evidence.

Is there a way to put a stop on any transfer of ownership Or disposal of the property?

there is a deed attached too but unfortunately i cannot find out what the deed says. I'm sure it will all come out soon enough and if there is any wrong doing Karma will do its work.

Land_Registry

A few things to comment on here purely from a land registration perspective, which may help a little. Hopefully I have followed the information provided as I appreciate you are finding bits out as you go along.

We register the legal ownership - if that's in their joint names then it's passed to her as the surviving joint owner. Probate would not be needed for her to sell/mortgage for example

The restriction is a form A restriction and that restricts her, as the surviving owner, in any sale/mortgage. For example she would have to appoint someone to act with her. That can be anyone so doesn't have to be you or a family member and it's not linked to the need for probate. It's really just saying you can't do this on your own as there may be a beneficial interest or trust to consider

The register is not definitive re such detail and the term 'tenants in common' is not referred to on the register.
Joint owners may indicate that they wish to hold the property as tenants in common when they are registered or may decide to sever their joint tenancy at some stage - it seems they did this on the transfer form so I'd suggest getting a copy and checking what details they included. You said they ticked option 3 so have you got a copy already? Or is that an assumption?

The Form A restriction does not itself change the ownership from beneficial joint tenancy to tenancy in common. The restriction only reflects the request or change made.

For further information see Joint property ownership available on the GOV.UK website

The option to apply for a form A restriction can be taken for a variety if reasons such as their wills, a deed of trust etc. But equally you can have those things too, splitting the beneficial ownerships, and no form A restriction

Bottom line then seems to be that the copy Transfer may offer a clue as to any split. Nothing else but something to confirm.

The property and legal ownership is explained as above - hers and no probate needed but she must consider his beneficial share, IF it was split, going forward.
As for personal items/belongings etc they are part of his estate so again any will/wishes may impact but as you appreciate not a land registration consideration.

So if you believe you have an interest in his share, whatever that may be, then it's important to get evidence to support that case. If she won't assist/agreee it's only a court of law which is going to hold sway. So balancing that cost against any personal need/principles arises

I hope you can find a solution but more clues are needed if you think there was a trust deed/will which you can then pursue

Kynthia

lovemelovemyshoes wrote: »

there is a deed attached too but unfortunately i cannot find out what the deed says. I'm sure it will all come out soon enough and if there is any wrong doing Karma will do its work.

As said before, a deed of trust often specifies the percentages of ownership when property is held as Tenants in Common.

Take the time to understand the Land Registry rep's post and good luck.

lovemelovemyshoes

Land_Registry wrote: »

A few things to comment on here purely from a land registration perspective, which may help a little. Hopefully I have followed the information provided as I appreciate you are finding bits out as you go along.

We register the legal ownership - if that's in their joint names then it's passed to her as the surviving joint owner. Probate would not be needed for her to sell/mortgage for example

The restriction is a form A restriction and that restricts her, as the surviving owner, in any sale/mortgage. For example she would have to appoint someone to act with her. That can be anyone so doesn't have to be you or a family member and it's not linked to the need for probate. It's really just saying you can't do this on your own as there may be a beneficial interest or trust to consider

The register is not definitive re such detail and the term 'tenants in common' is not referred to on the register.
Joint owners may indicate that they wish to hold the property as tenants in common when they are registered or may decide to sever their joint tenancy at some stage - it seems they did this on the transfer form so I'd suggest getting a copy and checking what details they included. You said they ticked option 3 so have you got a copy already? Or is that an assumption?

The Form A restriction does not itself change the ownership from beneficial joint tenancy to tenancy in common. The restriction only reflects the request or change made.

For further information see Joint property ownership available on the GOV.UK website

The option to apply for a form A restriction can be taken for a variety if reasons such as their wills, a deed of trust etc. But equally you can have those things too, splitting the beneficial ownerships, and no form A restriction

Bottom line then seems to be that the copy Transfer may offer a clue as to any split. Nothing else but something to confirm.

The property and legal ownership is explained as above - hers and no probate needed but she must consider his beneficial share, IF it was split, going forward.
As for personal items/belongings etc they are part of his estate so again any will/wishes may impact but as you appreciate not a land registration consideration.

So if you believe you have an interest in his share, whatever that may be, then it's important to get evidence to support that case. If she won't assist/agreee it's only a court of law which is going to hold sway. So balancing that cost against any personal need/principles arises

I hope you can find a solution but more clues are needed if you think there was a trust deed/will which you can then pursue

i have got a copy of the TR1 form and in section 11 the third box is ticked and handwritten underneath it says in accordance with the declaration of trust dated 12/12/2007 between (father) and (stepmother).


can i legally obtain any other copies of anything that would give me any further information regarding this matter? thanks.

Land_Registry

lovemelovemyshoes wrote: »

i have got a copy of the TR1 form and in section 11 the third box is ticked and handwritten underneath it says in accordance with the declaration of trust dated 12/12/2007 between (father) and (stepmother).


can i legally obtain any other copies of anything that would give me any further information regarding this matter? thanks.

It is very rare that the actual Deed of Trust is also submitted along with the Transfer. It relates to their beneficial interests as explained above so is usually private to them and anyone who drew it up.

If a professional drew it up then 11 years on they may no longer have a record unless they have always acted for the the parties involved for example

I'd suggest asking us if we have a copy and confirming who submitted the Transfer. That then gives you your next point of enquiry.
Alternatively you can approach her to advise that you know of the Deed of Trust ........ what rights you have to a copy from her or anyone else etc is one for others to advise on and earlier posts refer