POPLA appeal review please. Louth machine wouldn’t take money. PCN received

edited 28 October 2018 at 8:55PM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
18 replies 892 views
divebuddivebud Forumite
14 Posts
Hi, I’ve searched through the various threads but can’t find anything like my issue. The machine I tried to use wasn't accepting money, albeit intermittently not doing so!
I parked for around 50 minutes at a Europarks carpark. The machine wouldn’t accept my coins despite trying several times and different coins. The display said ‘out of use’or something similar. Another man was having the same trouble. I didn’t see the ridiculously high sign saying it was Anpr so left my £1 on the dash to show good intent (also no paper to write in but that would have been just as futile!) The man was then successful so I tried again but I still wasn’t. Had an appointment to go to so left the car. I have no proof that the machine wasn’t working properly although cctv would show me back and forth to car and machine. It’s a lease car so husband has the notice and as far as we can tell they have complied with required dates for sending it out (checking this tomorrow). I could really do with some advice on whether I need to state the machine was faulty at this stage or just go with one of the templates (signage about paying was clear so I’d choose a suitable template) I’d be really grateful for advice please.

Many thanks
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Replies

  • RedxRedx Forumite
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    use the template by EDNA BASHER at the foot of post #1 of the NEWBIES thread and appeal as LESSEE/HIRER/KEEPER (not as driver), so your hubby does it

    no blabbing about who was driving or what happened on the day
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • Thanks, will do. And thank you for your constant input into helping out people like me :) Much appreciated!
  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    It’s a lease car so husband has the notice and as far as we can tell they have complied with required dates for sending it out (checking this tomorrow).
    But the Notice to Hirer will not have enclosed with it, the required documents from para 13/14 of the POFA!

    :D
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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  • SystemSystem Forumite
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    The display said ‘out of use’or something similar. Another man was having the same trouble

    What did the sign say about machine failure/problems? Did it give a number to call? If it did, did you?
  • divebuddivebud Forumite
    14 Posts
    I didn’t see a number to call, but I didn’t specifically look. I thought it would be a person coming around so they would see my coin on dashboard. Had no idea it was Anpr controlled.
  • SystemSystem Forumite
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    Are you able to go back and check the sign?

    Where a contract is "frustrated" - not being given the opportunity to pay - the wording on the sign that covers that eventuality is key. And as failure to pay in a P&D car park is such a slam dunk win for the operator, it pays to have your own evidence.
  • The_DeepThe_Deep Forumite
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    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.
    for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the House of Commons recently

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41 recently.

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • edited 1 October 2018 at 5:37PM
    divebuddivebud Forumite
    14 Posts
    edited 1 October 2018 at 5:37PM
    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    But the Notice to Hirer will not have enclosed with it, the required documents from para 13/14 of the POFA!

    :D

    Thank you for your reply. I’ve read those paragraphs a few times and thought they were saying that the keeper only isn’t liable if the creditors are given the details of who hired the car (i.e if that is different from the registered keeper). We aren’t going to send in driver details and the lease car company won’t know so therefore keeper is still liable? I didn’t read it as them having to send us anything apart from the notice to keeper - but I find it hard to understand the language used, so I’m sorry if I’m being dim.
  • divebuddivebud Forumite
    14 Posts
    Are you able to go back and check the sign?

    Where a contract is "frustrated" - not being given the opportunity to pay - the wording on the sign that covers that eventuality is key. And as failure to pay in a P&D car park is such a slam dunk win for the operator, it pays to have your own evidence.

    I will go and check tomorrow, thanks for the advice and taking the time to reply. I wish I could have taken a pic of the screen when it wouldn’t let me pay as I have no other evidence! Although if they looked at the Anpr cameras pointing at the pay machines (and entrance/exit) they would see me going back and forth from machine to car!
  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    divebud wrote: »
    Thank you for your reply. I’ve read those paragraphs a few times and thought they were saying that the keeper only isn’t liable if the creditors are given the details of who hired the car (i.e if that is different from the registered keeper). We aren’t going to send in driver details and the lease car company won’t know so therefore keeper is still liable?

    I didn’t read it as them having to send us anything apart from the notice to keeper - but I find it hard to understand the language used, so I’m sorry if I’m being dim.

    Yes the PPC did have to enclose documents with the NTH:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74598852#post74598852
    As the vehicle in question is a hire vehicle, the operator has exercised its rights under section 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA 2012). Section 4 of PoFA 2012 refers to the operators’ right to claim unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. This is subject to paragraph 13 of PoFA 2012, relating to hire vehicles. Paragraph 13(2) states:

    “The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given -

    a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
    b) a copy of the hire agreement;
    and
    c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement”

    Reviewing the evidence provided to me by the operator, I cannot see that a copy of a statement signed by, or on behalf, of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement, has been provided to me either as an attachment to the notice to hirer, or separately.

    As this document has not been provided to me in the body of evidence supplied by the operator, I am not able to consider that it has been provided to the appellant in accordance with the provisions set out in PoFA 2012.

    As a result, I am not satisfied that the provisions set out in PoFA 2012 have been met for the purposes of transferring liability for unpaid parking charges from the keeper to the hirer of the vehicle. Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other comments or grounds of appeal raised by the appellant.

    Taken from post 3112 of POPLA Decisions.

    :)
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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