Current economic system & Housing

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

The market deciding what demands and needs are fulfilled led to the crash.

What crash are we talking about? The 2008-2018 period when a billion homes were built, more people left poverty than any other decade, literacy increased, life expectancy increased, food production increased, car production increased, electricity/water access increased. That decade? Lets have more such decades

History also shows us that capitalism and imperialism work hand in hand; besides Marxian economics has never been applied.. the Soviet and Chinese examples were corruptions advanced by dictators. Stalin and Mao were as Marxist as Putin is a democratic capitalist!

So every attempt at marxian economics has lead to tens of millions dead and starving. Should you at least not put a warning on the bottle that says warning there is a very high risk that on the way to the nirvana of marxian economics many of you will die?

Also why do people always defend capitalism by saying Marxism would be worse.

I said the exact opposite. That intrinsically we can see this system is doing very good even if the world had never heard of or tried anything else I would say its not worth moving to anything else because the progress we are currently making is immense

The criticisms of capitalism stand anyway.

What is there to criticize? Capitalism is just the belief that individuals should be able to own property. 99% agree with this even you probably do. Do you truely believe individuals should not be able to own the cloths on their backs or the cars they drive or a home?

What about how capitalist values are destroying our environment?

Yes this is the cries of the failed Marxists. Sure capitalism works fantastic but look at this garbage production (because they have a system which produces no rubbish)

Capitalism focuses on short term profits and fails to look after the long term needs of people and the environment which is being subjected to unsustainable exploitation.

Just empty propaganda
Captailism is producing a billion homes every ~18 years these are 100+ year investments

The environment is just a temporary problem you cant expect humanity to go from abject poverty to taking pristine care of the environment overnight. First we need to house people then we can sort out the environment.

Global warming and accelerated species extinctions and also societal factors such as rising economic inequality, unemployment, sluggish economic growth, rising debt levels and governments are clearly unable to deal with these problems.

Yet you know in your own bones 2018 is better than 2008 which was better than 1998 and that 2028 under the current system will be better than 2018

We need a new economic model, one which focuses on sustainability and efficiency and not profit and growth; the age of robust economic growth driven by abundant resources and cheap energy is rapidly coming to a close. Just slapping down the alternatives to capitalism is complacent imo.

You are a capitalist you believe people should be able to own property

You can be a capitalist and still address poverty and more sustainable energy etc
In fact that is exactly what is happening.
The most important factor in leaving poverty is electricity then in going from 10 to a shanty town hut to 2 to a nice home. And guess what the world is doing it is building out its electricity infrastructure and housing at an amazing rate

The worlds economic system is working and helping improve lives across the globe!

We do not need a new economic system, this one is working amazingly well why would you put at risk this great progress with your fantasy ideas?

andrewf75

Moby wrote: »

Just slapping down the alternatives to capitalism is complacent imo.

So true. And too many people accuse anyone pointing out the obvious flaws in capitalism of being a Marxist. Surely most people can agree that Marxism isn’t the answer but neither is carrying on as we are.

As naiive statements go, this takes some beating:

GreatApe wrote: »

The environment is just a temporary problem

Moby

andrewf75 wrote: »

So true. And too many people accuse anyone pointing out the obvious flaws in capitalism of being a Marxist. Surely most people can agree that Marxism isn’t the answer but neither is carrying on as we are.

As naiive statements go, this takes some beating:

I've tried before but it's probably wasted words. They start a thread repeat the same thing ad nauseum and those who respond are dismissed as idiots......charming! They probably lead a very sheltered life. Possibly if we all set up small businesses the world's problems will be solved and we'll be in nirvana! :-)

spadoosh

GreatApe wrote: »

What would Che have made of the fact that capitalism will build a billion homes for the poor & middle over the next two decades? How many did his system build?

What about all the other measures of progress under mostly capitalism? What has happened to health, literacy, access to electricity, water, healthcare, food, information, education of the poor & middle over the last 50 years since Mr Che death? Have they not improved almost beyond the wildest hopes of humanity? All that counts for nowt because there are some rich folks? Envy before progress?

Im not sure specifically about his system building houses, but what i do know is that Cuba has one of the highest rates of home ownership in the world.

They also have what can only be described as an alien economy, in that its pretty unique. Theyre like legit poor by any standards we measure but then when you put that on the Human Development Index theyre way above where theyd expect to be found.


As andrew says, its not about choosing another existing system that we know doesnt work its about finding a system that works better. You mentioned earlier youre an engineer. Once youve designed something do you just stop and leave it to do what you designed to do or do you keep checking on it, making sure its performing how you want, making sure everything is well oiled and on track. Maybe youd look at it after a few years when anew part has been developed and consider adding that on for the improved efficiency.

Youre doing everything against what you should be. One of the main benefits of capitalism is that it promotes efficiency and improvement, as you state, why then is that not applicable to the system itself? And the fact that we have soo much waste and inefficiency suggest the capitalist system (all be it not a proper capitalist system as ive explained before) isnt working.

Youre acting like a socialist. My way is right everyone elses is wrong and refuse to even acknowledge any short comings yet you admitted to me earlier on its not a perfect system. So its not perfect but because youre doing alright its ok. Youre just not a capitalist. Youre more like a soviet communist. (ie someone who preaches something yet practices something else).

Can you honestly not see any of the downfalls of the current system? Youve pointed out quite a few like a single mother earning millions through benefits. Thats not capitalism is it? BUt youre ok with that? But like to complain about it? BUt its good because its capitalism that isnt capitalism.

Youre just like the rest of us, not a clue what you really want.

Moby

spadoosh wrote: »

As andrew says, its not about choosing another existing system that we know doesnt work its about finding a system that works better. You mentioned earlier youre an engineer. Once youve designed something do you just stop and leave it to do what you designed to do or do you keep checking on it, making sure its performing how you want, making sure everything is well oiled and on track. Maybe youd look at it after a few years when anew part has been developed and consider adding that on for the improved efficiency.

Youre doing everything against what you should be. One of the main benefits of capitalism is that it promotes efficiency and improvement, as you state, why then is that not applicable to the system itself? And the fact that we have soo much waste and inefficiency suggest the capitalist system (all be it not a proper capitalist system as ive explained before) isnt working.

There are many angles you can come from in order to critique capitalism. I mentioned marxism because it's the obvious angle but you could also just look at our economy at present! The present franchise system on the railways is a disaster. Most people now agree with that, especially those who commute in the North. Capitalism has hardly promoted efficiency there?
Look at how property is distributed and accumulated. Look how property law works. Capitalist regulations, including the enforcement of private land and exclusive rights to natural resources benefits those who are already in power or have access to such resources. Those without private property are forced to sell their labor to capitalists and landlords in a market favourable to the latter. Our welfare system subsidises private landlords who charge exorbitant rents of £1300 a month for renting a 'studio' in my part of London. We as tax payers are funding these landlords to continue their Rachmann practices. They are taking advantage of the selling off of all the council housing stock at who knows what cost to the rest of the country!


I work for the Govmt in criminal justice....much of the care and supervision of criminals I supervise has been privatised. As a direct result of this the service has deteriorated markedly in the last three years because the contracts are given to the cheapest provider. Their motive is to cut costs and make a profit for their shareholders......the result is a deterioration in service and standards and the increase in violence, death and degradation in our prisons!

GreatApe

andrewf75 wrote: »

So true. And too many people accuse anyone pointing out the obvious flaws in capitalism of being a Marxist. Surely most people can agree that Marxism isn’t the answer

A capitalist is simply someone who believes individuals should be allowed to own property and >99% of people believe that individuals should be allowed to own property more than 99% of us are capatilist

Like yourself most people who talk about capitalism mix it up with a hundred other things.

but neither is carrying on as we are.

What is wrong with carrying on as we are?
The world is going in a good direction as fast as anyone could have imagined

As naiive statements go, this takes some beating:

How can it be anything other than true?
The enviromental problems are only tempory
If you have a half built house do you stop for 6 months to tend to the garden and make it look beautiful or do you spend the 6 months putting the roof on and the windows and finishing the house and then you can work on the garden?

That is more or less exactly what is happening. Humanity needs 5 billion homes to house 10 billion people. Right now we only have some 3 billion good homes so we are only a little over half way in sorting out our homes and then we can tend to the garden

Of course some nations like Germany/France/Nordics etc are further along and have built most their housing needs (which is one of the reasons the west is richer than say china or turkey) and so we have started tending to the garden via more and more green energy and more and more recycling policies. Even then some of you expect to go from 0 to 100 overnight but things dont work that way just like its going to take the world another 30-50 years to sort out its housing its going to take about that time too to sort out the environment but it will be done

All thanks to the amazing free market capitalism system we operate under.

This is what I am trying to argue here, we dont need to compare capatilism to anything else we can just plot where we are and where we want to be and see if capatilism is tending to that goal and how fast and on all measures things are going great.

I will repeat once more the biggest infrastructure project on earth, by far, is housing and what is capitalism record on building homes. About 600 million a decade which is what a failure? Hell no. Already the system is amazing and great but just give it another 30-50 years and the whole planet and its people will have been saved from the true scourge of poverty, nature and chance.

If you insist we can try different economic models after that point because at least we will have most things sorted out so you cant mess it up too much then.

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

I've tried before but it's probably wasted words. They start a thread repeat the same thing ad nauseum and those who respond are dismissed as idiots......charming! They probably lead a very sheltered life. Possibly if we all set up small businesses the world's problems will be solved and we'll be in nirvana! :-)

the great thing about capitalism is that you dont have to do anything others will solve the worlds problems driven by 'greed'. Look at all the greedy building companies who will build a billion homes over ~18 years who is benefiting who will benefit from those +1 billion homes? Sure some people will become millionaires and billionaires out of the process but the 2.5 billion people who live in those brand new homes who lived in worse conditions before they moved into those homes have not benefited at all?

If you fast forward what capitalism will do is 1: create a huge amount of capital (1 billion homes = some $200 trillion of capital in <20 years) but fast forward further and even those who do not hold capital (say an orphan) will benefit tremendously from the built up capital of their nation (a poor person born in the UK has an amazing life compared to a poor person born in Turkey because the UK has much more built up capital so we can look after the poor much better).

GreatApe

spadoosh wrote: »

Im not sure specifically about his system building houses, but what i do know is that Cuba has one of the highest rates of home ownership in the world

It was zero private ownership for a long time!
Anyway high ownership of poor stock and mass shortgages is not a blessing.
Germany supposedly has low ownership (about 65%) but they have a massive stock of homes (over 42 million units for a population of about 82 million people and most are decent good homes).

Non-government sources set the number of Cuban homes in poor or adequate condition as high as 57 percent and report a housing deficit of 700 thousand residences.

They also have what can only be described as an alien economy, in that its pretty unique. Theyre like legit poor by any standards we measure but then when you put that on the Human Development Index theyre way above where theyd expect to be found.

I wouldn't care if they were heaven on earth I am happy in the UK, most Brits are and most of us would not leave because we are happy with the economy and with our freedoms in the UK. Although as you note there is actual true poverty there while there is almost no true poverty in the UK that is not self induced some way.

As andrew says, its not about choosing another existing system that we know doesnt work its about finding a system that works better.

Dont fix what isnt broken.
Even if there was a total brand new economic theory that would on paper be 20% better and most of us agreed but it would take 20 years to implement test and see it through why would we risk that when we already know that in 20 years time this current system will definitely improve the stock of capital, house billions and enrich billions?

Its like giving up a £100k job that has a fixed guaranteed contract for 40 years to join your friends startup who says you will be making £120k in no time but there is no guarantee and a risk you break your back in the process.

You mentioned earlier youre an engineer. Once youve designed something do you just stop and leave it to do what you designed to do

It depends what we are talking about but yes you have to stop and go into production if it is a long term thing you would try to improve it but while producing. This is how most production works. You do not go from a nokia to an iphone 10 if you tried to do that you would fail and go bankrupt. Instead you go through 10 iterations

or do you keep checking on it, making sure its performing how you want, making sure everything is well oiled and on track. Maybe youd look at it after a few years when anew part has been developed and consider adding that on for the improved efficiency.

If I have a process line producing 100 units an hour and someone walks into the factory and say boss I have a totally radically new design it will be able to produce 120 units an hour but it is going to take a month to knock the machinery down and rebuild and in the process we might have some injuries or deaths and no I have never installed this new machinery anywhere else or tested it or proven it you are going to be my lab rats.....guess what my response would be? F...O

Youre doing everything against what you should be. One of the main benefits of capitalism is that it promotes efficiency and improvement, as you state, why then is that not applicable to the system itself?

Capitalism is just the belief that an individual should be able to own property. It isn't a machine or a formula or a car to be improved. You either believe an individual should be able to own property or not. Almost everyone is a capitalist and almost all people who 'hate capitalism' simply do not understand its definition

And the fact that we have soo much waste and inefficiency suggest the capitalist system (all be it not a proper capitalist system as ive explained before) isnt working.

What you class as waste others class as something they need or want and you are no better than them to say they are wrong

Youre acting like a socialist. My way is right everyone elses is wrong and refuse to even acknowledge any short comings yet you admitted to me earlier on its not a perfect system. So its not perfect but because youre doing alright its ok. Youre just not a capitalist. Youre more like a soviet communist. (ie someone who preaches something yet practices something else).

Do you think an individual should be able to own property? Yes you probably do so you are a capitalist. There isn't something to work better or worse or something to improve.

You can say can country X improve. Sure all countries can improve so can the world and it is improving. That is a discussion about technology business investments time etc it isnt about the belief of people being able to own property or not

Can you honestly not see any of the downfalls of the current system? Youve pointed out quite a few like a single mother earning millions through benefits. Thats not capitalism is it? BUt youre ok with that? But like to complain about it? BUt its good because its capitalism that isnt capitalism.

No I do not see any problem with individuals being able to own property. Actually I would draw a line on some things like I would not want individuals to be able to own tanks or warplanes or battleships :rotfl:

But an individual should be able to own their own home, their own business, their own land, their own cloths, their own creative efforts, etc

I see no problem with any of that.

What you are talking about are taxes and how the state distributes taxes etc. Those can be tweaked up or down. France is capitalist at 60% of GDP state controlled while the USA is also capitalist at about half of that but they are both capitalist (mostly)

We could have a debate about benefits to the poor but that would be a different debate and I would be quite left on that.

Youre just like the rest of us, not a clue what you really want.

haha sure its possible I am just here for a conversation I am not claiming I am 100% right and wont ever change my mind or views

GreatApe

Moby wrote: »

There are many angles you can come from in order to critique capitalism. I mentioned marxism because it's the obvious angle but you could also just look at our economy at present! The present franchise system on the railways is a disaster. Most people now agree with that, especially those who commute in the North. Capitalism has hardly promoted efficiency there?

You have the roads which are by far the mass transit system of the people
You have cars which are a huge capitalist system and a very successful one at that
You have new cars from £6k to >£60k providing cars at every price point
You have the huge secondary impact of capitalism which is even those who can not afford this large capital cost can buy second hand at 1/10th the cost
A huge sucess

The railways are a failure and a failed idea killed off thanks to the much more successful auto

Going forward software driven cars will fully kill off the intercity railways and its about time too

Neither state nor private can make the railways work without subsidy they should be abandoned and replaced with other systems

Look at how property is distributed and accumulated. Look how property law works. Capitalist regulations, including the enforcement of private land and exclusive rights to natural resources benefits those who are already in power or have access to such resources.

Are you kidding? Look at how production is distributed! What does the single mother produce in her life almost nothing while she consumes in excess of £1m in goods and services. How can you argue that this system is broken when it works so well?

Those who can produce an excess do so and the single mothers, refugees, drug abusers, and the low productivity workers consume the excess. Its a win win.

What really does not make sense is why do the excess producers continue to work. Jeff bezos or elon musk or buffet could retire today or even a decade ago but they continue to work and produce. They clearly can not consume that additional production so the rest of the world will

Those without private property are forced to sell their labor to capitalists

No they have the option to work for someone else, and it is often much better to have that option than not to.

In the UK you can go self employed or start your own business and almost half of the working population in the UK is self employed or employed by tiny companies of 1-5 persons (mostly family members) so who is exploring this half of the working population? Are they exploring themselves? Clearly your model of 1% being the bosses and abusing the 99% is wrong

you try to paint a picture of some far cats smoking cigars while you are forced to sell your labor to them for 50p on the £1 when the truth is you can become your own boss and make £1 on the £1 (also even as a worker you are more likely paid closer to 90p on the £1 which is a great deal imo)

Our welfare system subsidises private landlords.

This is nonsense. Its like claiming our welfare system subsidies private supermarkets
I know why you are confused, homes are longer lasting so you feel you should be able to appropriate them, while food is short lasting so you can see the value in its production. But both are the same economically just the time-frame is different

And if you want to steal the houses I would suggest you wait 35 years for another 2 billion to be built before you steal them. Because if you steal them now your going to have to build the houses and you dont seem like someone who would be willing to lay brick your more the internet expert telling us how bad we have it sitting around complaining to each other how hard life is

We as tax payers are funding these landlords to continue their Rachmann practices. They are taking advantage of the selling off of all the council housing stock at who knows what cost to the rest of the country!

Just give away the council stock to the sitting tenants for free
But you dont like poor people getting capital youd rather have the state own everything right?

I work for the Govmt in criminal justice....much of the care and supervision of criminals I supervise has been privatised. As a direct result of this the service has deteriorated markedly in the last three years because the contracts are given to the cheapest provider. Their motive is to cut costs and make a profit for their shareholders......the result is a deterioration in service and standards and the increase in violence, death and degradation in our prisons!

That is not capitalism that is the government of the day only wishing to spend x pounds on prisons

You could quite easily spend more on prisons and have clauses whereby each prisoner is given a bigger cell, more guards, a sky sports sub, and anything else you want. The bidders can bid on that basis.