Restrictive Covenants - Help!

davidmcn

Cakeguts wrote: »

You would have to check all of the beliefs of your visitors not to fall foul of this silly covenant. I say this because my father had a friend who was a spiritualist. I am sure that he would be one of the banned people. What are they going to do watch all the people who arrive to visit you? The whole thing sounds too intrusive to me.

I wouldn't read it too literally - they're obviously aiming at use as a place of "worship" / necromancy, not checking whether you've invited a satanist round for dinner.

Flugelhorn

Aunt bought an ancient house where there was a covenant prohibiting the distilling or brewing of alcohol - had been built / owned by non conformists many decades before. She carried on with her home made wine and no one noticed

iammumtoone

Kamaya wrote: »

Thanks all. The property is being sold via an estate agent, and they claim to have had no knowledge of the covenants that the seller intended to place on the sale.

Exact wording:
"Not to use or permit the property to be used for any illegal immoral or sacrilegious purpose for any activities relating in any way whatsoever to the occult or psychic mediums or for any purpose which may cause annoyance or offence to the transferor in respect of its ownership"


I am not going to get into the debate of religion but the above could include anything depending on how strict the churches beliefs are ( this could keep changing with each vicar). What if they are against unmarried sex, would they allow an unmarried couple to stay the night.


Irrelevant to us, but still.

I misunderstood the part about the certificate, but here's where we have to let them know if we plan on selling in the future:
"The transferee hereby covenants not to sell or dispose of the property or any interest in it without first advising the transferor of any proposed sale or disposal and without also ensuring that the person acquiring the property or any interest in it from the transferee first enters into a direct covenant with the transferor to observe all covenants both restrictive and positive."


Unlike convents that come with new builds that over the years get forgotten about, sounds like they intend to keep these ones. Its going to be harder to sell.


Thank you.

I would get back onto the estate agent to talk some sense into them. It going to be really hard to sell as once its your turn you will need to be upfront to potential buyer regarding signing the convent so unlike you they will not be so far involved its a harder decision to walk away.

SeasideSally

Kamaya wrote: »

"Not to use or permit the property to be used for any illegal immoral or sacrilegious purpose for any activities relating in any way whatsoever to the occult or psychic mediums or for any purpose which may cause annoyance or offence to the transferor in respect of its ownership"

I'm not really sure how the church plans to go about monitoring the whole psychic mediums bit. Given that mediums don't generally have flashing lights on their heads or make loud noises when they are doing their thing, how would anyone know they were, well, being mediums? And seances are generally conducted after dark, with curtains closed and lights off; is the local vicar planning on peeping through the gap in the curtains with a full-spectrum camera, hoping to catch you out? Surely proving you've been communing with the dearly departed would involve a huge invasion of privacy.

And what else would be deemed as causing 'annoyance or offence'? Using a Bible as a doorstop? Blasphemy in the front garden (in which case, my husband would be banned). Can a covenant with so broad a reading be enforced?

We once almost bought a flat with a lease that prohibited widows from moving in a husband after remarrying.

Personally, as someone who would not be considered a fit buyer by the church, on account of my interest in spooky goings on, I wouldn't be put off.

davidmcn

iammumtoone wrote: »

I am not going to get into the debate of religion but the above could include anything depending on how strict the churches beliefs are ( this could keep changing with each vicar). What if they are against unmarried sex, would they allow an unmarried couple to stay the night.

Prohibition against "immoral" uses are still pretty ubiquitous in commercial leases. Given that I doubt there's any generally-accepted view of what's "immoral" these days (especially if you've already covered "illegal" separately) I doubt a court would view them as enforceable, and I've never heard of anybody trying to. I really wouldn't worry about it. As I said above, it's aimed at potential uses other than something as benign as "residential dwellinghouse".

SmashedAvacado

I live with this one - its not a big deal.

"Not to use or permit the property to be used for any illegal immoral or sacrilegious purpose for any activities relating in any way whatsoever to the occult or psychic mediums or for any purpose which may cause annoyance or offence to the transferor in respect of its ownership"

Re this one:

"The transferee hereby covenants not to sell or dispose of the property or any interest in it without first advising the transferor of any proposed sale or disposal and without also ensuring that the person acquiring the property or any interest in it from the transferee first enters into a direct covenant with the transferor to observe all covenants both restrictive and positive."


This one is not needed. There are no positive covenants that you have identified and negative covenants run with the land. This is just bad lawyering and will slow down and add cost to any sale. Restrictive covenants run with the land and do not need confirmation from a new owner that they are bound by them. Positive covenants do not run with the land and sometimes this is why an obligation to enter into a deed of covenant is provided for but here they havent identified any positive obligations and as such, this should be rejected. This should be explained by your lawyer to the church's lawyer.

moneyistooshorttomention

Kamaya wrote: »

Thanks all. The property is being sold via an estate agent, and they claim to have had no knowledge of the covenants that the seller intended to place on the sale.

Exact wording:
"Not to use or permit the property to be used for any illegal immoral or sacrilegious purpose for any activities relating in any way whatsoever to the occult or psychic mediums or for any purpose which may cause annoyance or offence to the transferor in respect of its ownership"

Irrelevant to us, but still.

I misunderstood the part about the certificate, but here's where we have to let them know if we plan on selling in the future:
"The transferee hereby covenants not to sell or dispose of the property or any interest in it without first advising the transferor of any proposed sale or disposal and without also ensuring that the person acquiring the property or any interest in it from the transferee first enters into a direct covenant with the transferor to observe all covenants both restrictive and positive."

.

"Any purpose which may cause annoyance or offence" is the bit that would worry me most. That's a bit "broad brush" and you never know what they might decide to feel annoyed/offended about! You can easily avoid having the local Spiritualist Church around and hide any tarot cards you've got - but people can decide to be "annoyed/offended" about a wide range of things that most of us wouldnt bat an eyelid about. We do live in an era at present where it's sometimes possible for one little person to "scream" about something and a whole organisation introduces a policy or something to appease that "one person".

The other point being - if you are worried - then so would future purchasers be.

What I'm wondering now is if this is the first time in the history of the house that it's been sold with this sort of stuff written down there? I'd be asking about that - to see if this is an attempt to have something totally "new" imposed on the house. With that - there might be possibilities to tell the EA to tell the vendor "Cut it out - withdraw those clauses - no-one will take this house off your books until they have been withdrawn" and see how that works out....:cool:

SmashedAvacado

In relation to this covenant -

"Any purpose which may cause annoyance or offence" t.

The reason i am relaxed is because there are thousands and thousands of residential long leases up and down the country that have similar covenants in them and they are barely worth a footnote. The reality is that the church might have provisions in its articles / governance documents that provides that a sale must be on these terms. Anyone objecting to such terms is likely to be in a small minority because lets face it, practicing the occult is not something particularly common. As such, i can't see that it would have any impact on value.

The certificate one, as i have mentioned already, is more of an admin issue because it is completely unnecessary and is likely to end up adding cost upon a sale.

Margot123

Buy it.
Have your satantic rituals if you want them.
Hope that the local vicar doesn't have a mystical object of his own that can see through walls.

Seriously though, one of my friends bought a house with a covenant stating 'no consumption of intoxicating liquors'...........what merry parties they have with their alcohol. So far, the beneficiary of the covenant has not noticed, or been informed.

hazyjo

Not sure about the certificate bit - would have to look into that further.


The rest wouldn't put me off. Sounds to me like they don't want anyone cashing in on the fact it was once a church. So long as owners don't have visitors paying them money for readings, I can't see it being a problem. I doubt it will put a huge restriction on buyers in the future and I would laugh it off during future viewings or something.