1 households or 2? - additional HMO license

steban

Hi,

Does anyone know if this would count as one household or two for HMO licensing purposes? I have emailed the council but they typically take a few days to respond so I was hoping someone might know?

I am letting my terraced house to 4 people on one single AST. They are 2 co-habiting couples (1 married couple and 1 living together couple) -
1. Mr A + Ms B
2. Mr C + Ms D

Mr A and Ms D are first cousins

Would this be one household or two?

Also, what could I ask them to prove they are indeed related?

cheers

---

UPDATE - I've received replies from 4 London councils (not mine yet!) and all of them have confirmed that this would be one household and hence does not need an Additional HMO license.

davidmcn

I don't see what being cousins has to do with it?


I would say each couple is a household.

Comms69

steban wrote: »

Hi,

Does anyone know if this would count as one household or two for HMO licensing purposes? I have emailed the council but they typically take a few days to respond so I was hoping someone might know?

I am letting my terraced house to 4 people on one single AST. They are 2 co-habiting couples (1 married couple and 1 living together couple) -
1. Mr A + Ms B
2. Mr C + Ms D

Mr A and Ms D are first cousins

Would this be one household or two?

Also, what could I ask them to prove they are indeed related?

cheers

2 households.

You have no right to demand any proof of anything as they are now tenants.

steban

Aww that's disappointing to hear

Keeping fingers crossed and hoping against hope that the council says differently.

I've now sent the query to a few other councils as well that are operating additional HMO licensing schemes. Hope at least a couple will respond quicker than my council does.

Otherwise unfortunately will have to ask my lovely tenants (who have given me absolutely no trouble over the past year) to leave as there is no practical way that my little family home will be able to meet the myriad conditions of the HMO license - auto closing fire doors, luminiscent strips, fire signs, fire blankets, extinguishers, interlinked smoke alarms in all rooms, etc.

Comms69

steban wrote: »

Aww that's disappointing to hear

Keeping fingers crossed and hoping against hope that the council says differently. - Does it really matter? Even if the council says these tenants are one household (they wont, but hypothetically) the next set might be. Why not just prepare to register etc, for October?

I've now sent the query to a few other councils as well that are operating additional HMO licensing schemes. Hope at least a couple will respond quicker than my council does. - It's irrelevant what other councils do.

Otherwise unfortunately will have to ask my lovely tenants (who have given me absolutely no trouble over the past year) to leave as there is no practical way that my little family home will be able to meet the myriad conditions of the HMO license - auto closing fire doors, luminiscent strips, fire signs, fire blankets, extinguishers, interlinked smoke alarms in all rooms, etc.

The issue you have is there is NO way you will get them out before October which is when the regulations come in.


You must have applied for the licence by the 1st October.


The majority of changes you can put in yourself at reasonably low cost. The smoke alarms and fire doors are your two more expensive items and will need some investment, BUT I'd speak to the council about these requirements as their requirements may vary depending on the nature of the property.

00ec25

a "household" is rigidly defined in statute law for HMO purposes

if you or your council think differently, then refer them to the law, for it certainly considers "relative" in reference to "couples":

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/34/section/258

davidmcn wrote: »

I don't see what being cousins has to do with it?

surprised someone working in the legal profession thinks that? see above....

anselld

Comms69 wrote: »

The issue you have is there is NO way you will get them out before October which is when the regulations come in.


You must have applied for the licence by the 1st October.


The majority of changes you can put in yourself at reasonably low cost. The smoke alarms and fire doors are your two more expensive items and will need some investment, BUT I'd speak to the council about these requirements as their requirements may vary depending on the nature of the property.

The October changes concern mandatory licensing of 5 or more people. This is additional Licensing, nothing to do with October and was presumably in place for some time previously.

OP, have you checked with the Council on the specific requirements for additional licensing of small HMOs (2 storeys or less). What you have quoted sounds like the mandatory licensing standard for three storeys which usually more stringent.

Usually close fitting solid doors are aqpdequate for a small HMO. In any case all of those requirements can easily be met with the spending of some money.

Comms69

anselld wrote: »

The October changes concern mandatory licensing of 5 or more people. This is additional Licensing, nothing to do with October and was presumably in place for some time previously.

OP, have you checked with the Council on the specific requirements for additional licensing of small HMOs (2 storeys or less). What you have quoted sounds like the mandatory licensing standard for three storeys which usually more stringent.

Usually close fitting solid doors are aqpdequate for a small HMO. In any case all of those requirements can easily be met with the spending of some money.

No it's either or:


It is occupied by five or more persons;
is occupied by persons living in two or more separate households; and
meets—

• the standard test under section 254(2) of the Act;
• the self-contained flat test under section 254(3) of the Act but is not a purpose-built flat situated in a block comprising three or more self-contained flats; or
• the converted building test under section 254(4) of the Act.

WantToRetireEarly

Ok OP, listen up carefully. This is based on my experience letting to tenants long term in a similar arrangement - two siblings + their partners and having to go through the same thought process as yourself a year ago.

1. The definition of a household is written down in legislation (Housing Act 2004, sec 258) and not on the discretion of individual councils. As far as the definition of a "relative" is concerned, brothers/sisters are treated the same as cousins.

The specific line is - "“relative” means parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, nephew, niece or cousin;"

2. This is important - 4 individuals forming 2 or more households does not come under mandatory HMO licensing (before or after 1st October) BUT councils have had the power to require additional licensing (also known as small HMO). For instance, my council (Havering) introduced it for specific wards in 2017 which is when I had to figure out whether I fell into this or not. The changes coming in on 1st October have nothing to do with this.

3. So, if your situation did constitute an HMO requiring an additional license, you are already breaking the law and any S21 you serve is invalid anyways. I'm not trying to scare you here, just saying it how it is.

Having said all that, the good news is that (based on my experience letting to tenants long term in a similar arrangement - two siblings + their partners) to me it looks clear that it is one household which is what Havering finally told me. As far as the legislation is concerned, brothers/sisters are treated the same as cousins in the definition of a household.

The specific line is - "“relative” means parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, uncle, aunt, nephew, niece or cousin;"

You are doing the exact right thing by getting it from the council IN WRITING.

As the council officer told me, as the landlord it is your responsibility to ensure that you are not falling foul of the law, so you need to do whatever it is that you need to convince yourself that the 2 tenants are indeed related. There is no guidance, the council will not help you in this regard and they don't ask for or need any evidence. That is your responsibility.

Trust me, you do not want to run an HMO and the councils that bring these requirements in don't want you to run an HMO. The requirements are onerous, the expenses involved in retrofitting all they ask is significant (assuming you are already charging market rent, you will not be able to recoup these costs through rent) and it'll end up looking like a hostel.


In your place, if the tenants cannot prove that 2 of them in different couples are indeed related, I would serve an S21 asap, hope that they don't ask for a refund of the rent (through a Rent Recovery Order (RRO) which allows the occupiers of a property, or the relevant local authority, to recover rent or HB paid to an unlicensed landlord) and re-let the property to a family.

Good luck and keep us posted when you get a reply from the council!

steban wrote: »

Hi,

Does anyone know if this would count as one household or two for HMO licensing purposes? I have emailed the council but they typically take a few days to respond so I was hoping someone might know?

I am letting my terraced house to 4 people on one single AST. They are 2 co-habiting couples (1 married couple and 1 living together couple) -
1. Mr A + Ms B
2. Mr C + Ms D

Mr A and Ms D are first cousins

Would this be one household or two?

Also, what could I ask them to prove they are indeed related?

cheers

steban

anselld wrote: »

The October changes concern mandatory licensing of 5 or more people. This is additional Licensing, nothing to do with October and was presumably in place for some time previously.

You're right, apparently this has been a requirement at my council since 2017. Unfortunately it never even crossed my mind that I might be operating an HMO! If my house is indeed an HMO, I'm already breaking the law and need to rectify that before I'm caught out.

anselld wrote: »

OP, have you checked with the Council on the specific requirements for additional licensing of small HMOs (2 storeys or less). What you have quoted sounds like the mandatory licensing standard for three storeys which usually more stringent.

I have checked with the council specifically in relation to my property and unfortunately, this is the list of requirements that I got from them for an additional license (apart from the £500 fee) -

---

To process an application for an additional license for the above property, I need the following.

Details I need are:

1. Window Restrictors - Window restrictors are required on the 1st floor
2. Gas Certificate
3. Portable Appliance test (PAT) – This is a legal requirement if you have supplied any appliances.
4. Electrical Certificate
5. Floor plan - Please provide a professional detailed floor plan with clear signs showing exits, fire doors & where the smoke alarms/heater detectors are located & room sized in metered squared.
6. Risk assessment - This should show where the high risks are & the steps taken to reduce those identified risks
7. Fire blanket - A fire blanket is required in the kitchen
8. Fire doors - You require fire door in all “risk rooms”, which include all the rooms with the exception of the bathroom, these doors must be 30 minute fire doors, fitted with intumescent strips and smoke seals and self-closing.
9. Fire extinguisher - We require that you install a fire extinguisher to the hall or landing
10. Alarm system – A minimum Grade D system with LD2 coverage will need to be installed.
Grade a system of one or more interlinked mains-powered smoke (or heat) alarms each with integral battery standby supply. These are designed to operate in the event of mains failure and therefore could be connected to the local lighting circuit rather than an independent circuit at the dwelling’s main distribution board. There is no control panel.
LD2 coverage: a system incorporating detectors in all circulation spaces that form part of the escape routes from the dwelling and in all rooms or areas that present a high fire risk to occupants i.e. risk room
11. Smoke alarms/heat detectors - Mains wired and interlinked smoke detectors need to be installed in the common parts on all floors & in each room used as a bedroom or communal living room and a mains wired & interlinked heat detector installed in the kitchen.

steban

Thanks for all that information, hopefully the council will agree with your assessment that it is one household!

If not, I am in hot water and could possibly have to return a whole year's worth of rent?!

WantToRetireEarly wrote: »

In your place, if the tenants cannot prove that 2 of them in different couples are indeed related, I would serve an S21 asap, hope that they don't ask for a refund of the rent (through a Rent Recovery Order (RRO) which allows the occupiers of a property, or the relevant local authority, to recover rent or HB paid to an unlicensed landlord) and re-let the property to a family.

Good luck and keep us posted when you get a reply from the council!