Does partially obscured signage make PCN invalid?

Rosa_Klebb

Hi, a vehicle we were associated with was parked in a pay and display car park at Sennen Cove, Lands End - the car park by the Harbour. It is a small pay and display car park and the parking was paid for using the ticket machine on-site located within a bus shelter type structure. At the time of entry to the car park and at the time of payment, no signage was seen. Unfortunately on the walk back along the cliffs from Lands End, one of our group sprained their ankle, meaning that the return walk back took much longer than planned. No medical attention was required but our late arrival back at the car park was 25 mins after our ticket had expired. On returning to the car a PCN was affixed to the windscreen. This had been issued 20 mins after our ticket expired and 5 minutes before we arrived back.

We then had a good look around the car park for signage and noticed a Parking Terms & Conditions sign on the wall behind the bus shelter where the parking payment was made. The sign was almost completely obscured by the structure of the bus shelter when stood in front of the ticket machine - although the sign would have been fully visible on the approach to the car park as the set back wall on which it was located was at right angles to the entrance. That said, most people would be looking straight ahead at where they are going when driving into the car park rather than 90deg to the side, and we suspect if they are looking ahead then they would have been also very likely to miss the sign as we did. The sign even when visible was in full shadow and because it was set back, would have been hard to read unless stood directly in front of it on a bright sunny day. There was a second sign on a wall opposite the entrance but the lower half of this was obscured by the vehicles parked in front of the sign. A third sign was in the car park but this was not visible from where the vehicle was parked.

Upon checking the parking company's details (KBT Cornwall Ltd trading as Armtrac Security Services) we notice on the sign that their Company Registration Number is displayed incorrectly (listed on the sign as 8087007 but is actually 08087077 according to Companies House). We also note that their postcode as stated on the sign TR20 9WD is not a fully valid postcode.

With the above points in mind would the PCN (or NTK if it arrives) be valid and upheld in a court of law?

Sorry, unable to post images as I am new here.

Browntoa

What does the "newbies" thread on this section say about signage and template letter's to appeal ?

Coupon-mad

With the above points in mind would the PCN (or NTK if it arrives) be valid and upheld in a court of law?

Almost certainly not. With evidence of a contract not prominently displayed, that's a half decent defence, and with our assistance, even weaker cases still win 99% of the time.

What won't work is an appeal to the IAS so only appeal once to Armtrac, and do not say who was driving. then ignore everything, ignore all scary letters except a Letter before Claim with 30 days allowed and response forms. And do not ignore an actual court claim, if it happens.

Come here if that arrives in the end, and join the 99% of fully-coached defendant posters who report a win, regularly.

We assume you already read the NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST thread and know about the template appeal to put in, just for the sake of not ignoring it (doesn't *work* v IPC firms, but looks better at court stage if the D has not ignored the thing).

Rosa_Klebb

Thank you, yes I have already read the NEWBIES thread but before deciding whether to pay up or fight this we just wanted clarification on the likely validity of the PCN because of the signage not being ideal and the fact that Armtrac (KBT) don't even list their company details correctly on the sign. Always useful to know of your possible defense options beforehand and hopefully this will benefit other posters too.

luverlyjubbly

Hope you have (or can get) some photographs of the car park, entrance and particularly of the sign being obscured? Also, were there any terms on the pay machine itself?

I'm involved in a case where the Claimant included no pictures of signs in their Witness Statement, the Judge made a particular point of it, asking where they were. If it gets to court, it shows you have nothing to hide, they on the other hand would likely want to obfuscate the fact that the "contract" (i.e. sign) wasn't prominent and couldn't be accepted by the driver.

Rosa_Klebb

Yes I have lots of pictures from various angles showing the signs. On the machine itself it just said "it is an offense not to display a valid ticket or to park outside marked parking areas" - that's it.


Would the incorrect Ltd Company number displayed on the sign make any PCN invalid?

KeithP

Rosa_Klebb wrote: »

Would the incorrect Ltd Company number displayed on the sign make any PCN invalid?

Possibly.

The sign is the basis of a contract between the PPC and the driver.

We have certainly seen cases here where the signs show the name and details of one company and the PCN has been sent by another company.

Computersaysno

The signs are VITAL in forming the contract.....so I'd say an error could well invalidate any 'contract'.


If the entity issuing the PCN is not the entity on the sign then you're a winner!