Court Case Tomorrow vs Horizon/Gladstones

Umkomaas

In my Horizon cases and it seems many other the initial invoices and NTK were not compliant with POFA 2012 and you bat them back with no keeper liability

Ah, right. The Notice to Keeper not compliant, not 'the site'. That's a bit different.

chad888

Case Adjourned : 14 days to deliver another Defence and claimant has 14 days following to reply
21st Aug 18 at 4:30 PM
#1
Case was heard this morning.

Leading up to this, the claimant claims that on 4 instances the vehicle did not adhere to the contract 3hr 16, 3hr 20 and 3hr 21 (noted by parking attendant) and 4hr 29 (noted by ANPR).

The court proceedings ruled that we had to deliver witness statement to the other party by 14 days before proceedings. By the date in question, the claimant had not delivered any evidence or witness statement and so I had to second guess what was going to be included in the evidence. Unfortunately when I received the evidence, it included the times of parking (not included in particulars of claim) and so the fact that the site owners agent and the parking company have a 4 hour, plus 20 minute grace period was still being followed by me.

It came to cross examining the claimant (a solicitors agent representing ELM hired by Gladstones - the judge ruled against me questioning right of audience because sometimes companies cant attend and ELM is a legal something something).

I went straight in to the "I was well within time by half an hour on the 3 cases", the other side exploded in to "its an ambush, it wasn't submitted in the witness statement, it should not be allowed in court as my evidence". I responded with "it was submitted in the evidence, it is in the claimants own evidence pack, i could not include it in my evidence pack because i was unaware of the times i had stayed and the contract that horizon had with the land owner when i wrote my witness statement because horizon cynically posted it out on the day it was to be delivered.

The judge didn't want to get in to semantics regarding what was delivered and when, because i hand delivered my witness statement instead of official signed mail so both sides were in the wrong. She sent us out for 10 minutes so that the agent can phone Gladstones and request that we reach a settlement on the 3 charges.

After the 10 minutes we returned and Gladstones informed them no settlement, carry on with the case. They then argued that the contract site services agreement that states 4 hours is under a privacy agreement and should not be included in the case and the contract in question is between myself and the parking company and that is the contract displayed on the signs and then brought up (i think the Beavis case) stating that the parking company needs no legal something to place a contract on the land and that for example they can write up a contract with me to buy buckingham palace and despite not having any claim over the land I would still be under the provision to pay that contract for Buckingham palace but walk away without.

There was tonnes of legal jargon and case law used by the claimant and i didnt understand really, the judge was arguing on my side trying to stop the agent making strawmen arguments and then using case law against those strawmen, despite them being nothing related to my point.

I argued back that if they are saying they are operating under their own terms for this land and not the site owners then under what contract authority are they allowed to bring this claim in their own name for something that they legally have no ties to.

The judge said that she had other hearings to attend and adjourned the case so that i can fully write out all my evidence now that i have the claimants pack, and then they have 14 days to respond to that with law showing they are allowed to bring claims in their own name under their own terms against the services agreement.



That said, I now have 14 days so if anybody is well versed in witness statement and evidence production could they please PM me and we can work through it together, or give me pointers. I'm just a early 20s kid facing a parking company making generic claims trying to get 4 parking tickets, 3 of which i was actually within the allowed land owner time. facing a bill of £1000 (175 x 4 plus interest and legal fees.

Quentin

It's not a good idea to invite pms here


Now you have take great care over responding to any messages you get


There are people lurking here who are not what they may seem!!

chad888

Quentin wrote: »

It's not a good idea to invite pms here


Now you have take great care over responding to any messages you get


There are people lurking here who are not what they may seem!!

I thought this exact thing when I posted it, I was thinking should I remove that...but i didn't want to have people posting defence points in a public forum. I was just going to invite PMs to give me argument points.

Quentin

chad888 wrote: »

……. I was just going to invite PMs to give me argument points.

Don't you think this forum is busy enough without people expecting private message advice on defence points?


Do some research here!


You will find plenty!

waamo

I wouldn't worry about it being public. They get to see it in plenty of time anyway.you also need to read this if you haven't already. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=74690195&postcount=3

System

I'd also wait to see if they come up with an argument to answer the judge's question. No point in second guessing what might come up. Deal with what comes in front of you - as the judge will.

chad888

IamEmanresu wrote: »

I'd also wait to see if they come up with an argument to answer the judge's question. No point in second guessing what might come up. Deal with what comes in front of you - as the judge will.

Unfortunately, I have 14 days to issue and serve my documents and then they have 14 days following that date to issue and serve their paperwork.

So mine is going to have to be based on second guessing what ever argument they come up with to say that the site services agreement is a moot point and the contract is actually between myself and the sign Horizon put up.

I am sure there is some legal framework somewhere that states that they can not just put up a sign on land that they have no authority over, demanding people money as if they are the gate keepers, creating their own terms without the land owners/site owners permission.

System

I am sure there is some legal framework somewhere that states that they can not just put up a sign on land that they have no authority over, demanding people money as if they are the gate keepers, creating their own terms without the land owners/site owners permission.

There is - ParkingEye v Beavis.

In order to operate like this, they need a legitimate purpose. That purpose is defined within the SLA. If they decide to rip up the SAL and go "off-piste" which is what they are saying using VCS v HMRC, then the penalty rule applies (suspended in Beavis by "legitimate purpose") and the amounts are penalties which they cannot collect.

[Deleted User]

This is a simple point.

You now have their statement served prior to the last hearing. You know what their case on the timings is. You now have the chance to file a new and better defence.

The claimant always has the right to serve a reply to a defence - its optional and usually used where the defendant makes points they have not dealt with (in this case that appears to be your assertion that there is no authority from the actual land owner to operate).

You do need to do more reading - the same cases come up time and again.

Don't forget that if the claimant wishes to say that they are entitled to charge you parking, despite not providing that service (and recover damages for that) you would be entitled to issue proceedings for your own breach of contract claim in exactly the amount the court awards. It's hardly a good basis to proceed or a good use of court resources (but it might be fun).

Please ensure your defence deals with both the bolt on fees and the interest. I have yet to see an interest calculation for correctly (if fees are bolted on later, you can hardly be expected to pay interest on them from the date of parking), for more than one parking event, interest will accrue from different periods and, finally, there will be no contractual basis to charge fixed sums for miscellaneous admin as they are.

It's also worth attributing the adjournment to their failure to adequately particularise the claim.

Finally FWIW, hand delivery is a valid method of service, but it's preferable to get a receipt from reception staff when doing that. Also consider, for completeness, filling in a certificate of service (Google it) and lodging that at court.