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Litter Fine please help

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Hi all

New to here and am after a bit of advice if possible?

My Son was approached by what he describes as 2 big burly men who intimidated him and accused him of dropping a roll up end (My Son says he dropped it as it was burning his hand and he then picked it up and stubbed it out on one of those ash tray thingys on walls). He was issued with a FPN and said he wants to fight it as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. The place on the FPN is half a mile away from where the alleged offence took place so they have got the are and street name wrong.

He says they followed him into his place of work (He works 4 hours a week).

He suffers from severe depression and has self harmed and attempted to take his own life in the past and this has made him very down and upset about the whole thing.

Anyway we have now received the Court papers and the 'Statement' from the jobsworth just repeats 'he was issued with a fine etc etc pay up pay up' that is basically what it says.

After reviewing all this, they have sent a photocopy of the FPN and it has his place of work written on it in black pen.....I have the original one issued and it does not have this on, so it has clearly been tampered with!! where it says id checked is totally blank but on the copy they have sent with the Court Papers has his place of work clearly written in different handwriting to the original which doesn't have it on, my Son says they never asked him for ID, anyway they knew where he worked as they followed him and he had his uniform on with the company name on the shirt.

Is this Perverting the course of Justice or just basic tampering with evidence? I have all the evidence and I even have letters from the council saying they don't have any footage after I asked for any footage. My local MP has also asked for the footage and the Council has just ignored her.

Does anyone know where I stand on this? I am not condoning littering but there are surely mitigating circumstances here and the evidence has clearly been tampered with so if littering is an offence then I am sure what they have done is an offence too.

I spoke to the Council today and the arrogant git on the other end said that it wasn't tampered with it was just 'additional information'.....if that was the case then why not write this 'additional information' on a separate sheet of paper? He also said that the docket was not evidence, even though it has a stamp saying exhibit SG1, so I am taking it as evidence.

Thanks in advance for your replies.
«134

Comments

  • JJ_Egan
    JJ_Egan Posts: 20,281 Forumite
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    Tampering

    Perverting the course of justice .
    You need to go and see a solicitor .
    Asking unqualified members of a forum wont help if your actual claims are true.
  • bris
    bris Posts: 10,548 Forumite
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    You won't win, you will just cause more stress fighting it, pay up and put it to bed. What's a few quid compared to another mental health breakdown.
  • hollydays
    hollydays Posts: 19,812 Forumite
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    Agreed. He's dropped a cigarette butt, it'll be lot less hassle to just pay up.
    In the scale of things it's a very small misdemeanour.
  • AndyMc.....
    AndyMc..... Posts: 3,248 Forumite
    Combo Breaker First Post
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    Hi all

    New to here and am after a bit of advice if possible?

    My Son was approached by what he describes as 2 big burly men who intimidated him and accused him of dropping a roll up end (My Son says he dropped it as it was burning his hand and he then picked it up and stubbed it out on one of those ash tray thingys on walls). He was issued with a FPN and said he wants to fight it as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. The place on the FPN is half a mile away from where the alleged offence took place so they have got the are and street name wrong.

    He says they followed him into his place of work (He works 4 hours a week).

    He suffers from severe depression and has self harmed and attempted to take his own life in the past and this has made him very down and upset about the whole thing.

    Anyway we have now received the Court papers and the 'Statement' from the jobsworth just repeats 'he was issued with a fine etc etc pay up pay up' that is basically what it says.

    After reviewing all this, they have sent a photocopy of the FPN and it has his place of work written on it in black pen.....I have the original one issued and it does not have this on, so it has clearly been tampered with!! where it says id checked is totally blank but on the copy they have sent with the Court Papers has his place of work clearly written in different handwriting to the original which doesn't have it on, my Son says they never asked him for ID, anyway they knew where he worked as they followed him and he had his uniform on with the company name on the shirt.

    Is this Perverting the course of Justice or just basic tampering with evidence? I have all the evidence and I even have letters from the council saying they don't have any footage after I asked for any footage. My local MP has also asked for the footage and the Council has just ignored her.

    Does anyone know where I stand on this? I am not chondoning littering but there are surely mitigating circumstances here and the evidence has clearly been tampered with so if littering is an offence then I am sure what they have done is an offence too.

    I spoke to the Council today and the arrogant git on the other end said that it wasn't tampered with it was just 'additional information'.....if that was the case then why not write this 'additional information' on a separate sheet of paper? He also said that the docket was not evidence, even though it has a stamp saying exhibit SG1, so I am taking it as evidence.

    Thanks in advance for your replies.

    Ive not seen a council ticket for litter but I have seen several fixed penalty notices.

    It's not uncommon to issue a ticket and then complete the original notes. The official copy is often different to the defendants and it's never been an issue in court.

    He dropped the litter either pay up or contest it, but you're going to need a better defence to the one you're considering.
  • hollydays
    hollydays Posts: 19,812 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post First Anniversary
    edited 6 August 2018 at 10:40PM
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    Also, being simply burly isn't a reason to be intimidated in itself,and I'm sure they get some very aggressive customers hence being in twos.
    I'm assuming he had no I/d hence why they followed him.
    I don't see any mitigating circumstances.
  • reason2
    reason2 Posts: 362 Forumite
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    people clearly arent reading the post.

    He dropped it, but picked it straight up and used a wall mounted ashtray.

    These people usually have body cams to support their ticket, ask for the footage, it should show him pick it up again. unless by magic it cuts off immediately after dropping it
  • MobileSaver
    MobileSaver Posts: 4,253 Forumite
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    reason2 wrote: »
    people clearly arent reading the post.

    He dropped it, but picked it straight up and used a wall mounted ashtray.

    You clearly must be reading a different post to the rest of us; the OP does not say that he "picked it straight up" so the events could easily be that he picked it up only after the big burly men accused him of dropping it... (and hence was guilty as charged of littering.)
    Every generation blames the one before...
    Mike + The Mechanics - The Living Years
  • peter_the_piper
    peter_the_piper Posts: 30,268 Forumite
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    He implied that it was picked up promptly, it certainly did not say that he picked it up after the men approached him.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
  • missile
    missile Posts: 11,694 Forumite
    Name Dropper Photogenic First Post Combo Breaker
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    Pay up and learn not to drop litter.
    "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Gandhi
    Ride hard or stay home :iloveyou:
  • takman
    takman Posts: 3,876 Forumite
    Combo Breaker First Post
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    He implied that it was picked up promptly, it certainly did not say that he picked it up after the men approached him.

    It's just as likely that he dropped it on the floor and put it out with his foot (as it was hot) then picked it up once he noticed someone had saw him.

    The fact the the OP mentions "big burly men" and their son being intimidated shows it is clearly biased against the people issuing the fine.
    Hi all

    New to here and am after a bit of advice if possible?

    My Son was approached by what he describes as 2 big burly men who intimidated him and accused him of dropping a roll up end (My Son says he dropped it as it was burning his hand and he then picked it up and stubbed it out on one of those ash tray thingys on walls). He was issued with a FPN and said he wants to fight it as he doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. The place on the FPN is half a mile away from where the alleged offence took place so they have got the are and street name wrong.

    He says they followed him into his place of work (He works 4 hours a week).

    He suffers from severe depression and has self harmed and attempted to take his own life in the past and this has made him very down and upset about the whole thing.

    Anyway we have now received the Court papers and the 'Statement' from the jobsworth just repeats 'he was issued with a fine etc etc pay up pay up' that is basically what it says.

    After reviewing all this, they have sent a photocopy of the FPN and it has his place of work written on it in black pen.....I have the original one issued and it does not have this on, so it has clearly been tampered with!! where it says id checked is totally blank but on the copy they have sent with the Court Papers has his place of work clearly written in different handwriting to the original which doesn't have it on, my Son says they never asked him for ID, anyway they knew where he worked as they followed him and he had his uniform on with the company name on the shirt.

    Is this Perverting the course of Justice or just basic tampering with evidence? I have all the evidence and I even have letters from the council saying they don't have any footage after I asked for any footage. My local MP has also asked for the footage and the Council has just ignored her.

    Does anyone know where I stand on this? I am not condoning littering but there are surely mitigating circumstances here and the evidence has clearly been tampered with so if littering is an offence then I am sure what they have done is an offence too.

    I spoke to the Council today and the arrogant git on the other end said that it wasn't tampered with it was just 'additional information'.....if that was the case then why not write this 'additional information' on a separate sheet of paper? He also said that the docket was not evidence, even though it has a stamp saying exhibit SG1, so I am taking it as evidence.

    Thanks in advance for your replies.

    You really need to stop wasting the councils time requesting footage and claiming tampering of evidence, you have already said you son dropped him so he was littering; it's as simple as that and it doesn't matter how long it was on the floor.

    Maybe you should put this much effort into helping your Son to stop using drugs.
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