One point short of daily care in PIP.

justaquestion

Thank you very much for your good information and your replies.

I never go out socially on my own, to be honest I don't have a social life of my own because of this problem, as well as other anxiety and depression related problems.

When I do go out with my partner its usually just to a concert or on a scenic run in the car, I can manage to go out to a restaurant with my partner but can't share a table with other people. As I said before to specific events such as weddings I cant go with my partner, because I have tried before and couldn't manage.

I have had lots of therapy years ago, seen so many psychologists and psychiatrists eventually, I just had to live with this and stopped going to mental health teams.

The GPS letter from five years ago does say that its a long term problem, but my current practice is so busy they don't do a request for a benefit letter any more

So its a difficult one to call. I personally feel I am somewhere between needing social support which would score 4 points and overwhelming distress which scores 8 points but the 4 points would do.

I know that being able to turn up at the face to face assessment, or to the tribunal in future, somehow puts a negative inference to my argument, but what can one do ... you have to go or you loose.

The thought has crossed my mind that on a MR they might reduce the points further as I am only one short, so that if I go to the tribunal after it, it would only make it harder to get the points I lost during the MR back., but maybe that is simply my imagination in overdrive.

Finally I do have to keep positive though I have had a few sleepless nights over this (some people might think I need a good kick up the bum) I am at the age now where I have to try to live each day of my life, and enjoy it as best as I can, and count my blessings, and I know its a bad thing to get too wrapped up in loosing a benefit.

Many thanks.






.

calcotti

poppy12345 wrote: »

I disagree with this, sorry. My daughter scored 4 points in this descriptor because she never goes out alone. At the time of her PIP application the only 2 people that supported her to go out was myself and her sister. She has a Support Worker now but not at that time and this didn't stop them awarding her 4 points for this.

No need to apologise for disagreeing with me - that's a really useful post. What I've quoted is what the regulations define the terms to mean. I believe there are tribunal decisions to support this. However your post reinforces that PIP decisions are unpredictable and decision makers are not consistent in their approach. The OP may be successful but it's not clear cut.

calcotti

This is what the Guide for assessors says:
Activity 9 !!!8211; Engaging with other people face to face:

This activity considers a claimant!!!8217;s ability to engage with other people, which means to interact face-to-face in a contextually and socially appropriate manner, understand body language and establish relationships.

Activities 7 and 9 are not mutually exclusive. If claimants require support to engage with others under activity 9, as well as communication support under activity 7, then their needs must be considered under both activities
.
Notes:
An inability to engage face-to-face must be due to the impact of impairment and not simply a matter of preference by the claimant.
Social support means support from another person trained or experienced in assisting people to engage in social situations, or someone directly experienced in supporting the claimant themselves (for example a family member), who can compensate for limited ability to understand and respond to body language, other social cues and assist social integration. Most claimants with sensory impairments will be able to fully engage with others independently, however they may score on both activities 7 and 9 if, for example anxiety arising from their impairment means they reasonably require social support to engage with people generally.
Behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person must be as a result of an underlying health condition and the claimant!!!8217;s inability to control their behaviour.

When considering whether claimants can engage with others, consideration should be given to whether they can engage with people generally, not just those people they know well.
If an individual cannot reliably complete an activity in the way described in a descriptor then they should be considered unable to complete it at that level and an alternative descriptor selected.
A Can engage with other people unaided.
Within the assessment criteria, the ability to perform an activity unaided means without either the use of aids or appliances; or help from another person.

B Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people.
Prompting means reminding, encouraging or explaining by another person. This could take the form of a person acting in a reassuring capacity e.g. calming someone who is anxious about interacting with others.

9b prompting applies to people who need someone present for part of the time to help them socially engage, for example somebody with depression who might need intermittent encouragement.

C Needs social support to be able to engage with other people.
Social support is something over and above prompting such as active intervention and not mere reassurance by presence.
Descriptor 9c is all about needing social support to engage in order to reduce anxiety (note the legislation does not refer to overwhelming psychological distress and so the bar is much lower), or to assist with social integration, or to minimise harm to the claimant or others.
Social support means support from another person trained or experienced in assisting people to engage in social situations or someone directly experienced in supporting the claimant themselves (for example a family member), who can compensate for limited ability to understand and respond to body language, other social cues and assist social integration.
Applies to people who can only engage with others with active and skilled support on the majority of days, or who are left vulnerable due to their level of risk- awareness as a result of their condition.
Vulnerability to the actions of others is considered in this activity. For example, someone with cognitive or learning impairment may be less risk aware and vulnerable to manipulation or abuse.

D Cannot engage with other people due to such engagement causing
either
i. overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant; or
ii. the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person.
Overwhelming psychological distress means distress related to a mental health condition or intellectual or cognitive impairment which results in a severe anxiety state in which the symptoms are so severe that the person is unable to function. This may be as a direct result of a mental health condition, or as a result of another disability such as cognitive or developmental impairment.

---

There's an important sentence at C which support's Poppy's experience "Social support means support from another person trained or experienced in assisting people to engage in social situations or someone directly experienced in supporting the claimant themselves (for example a family member), who can compensate for limited ability to understand and respond to body language, other social cues and assist social integration." So support from a family member is introduced as a consideration rather than just the more narrow regulation definition.

Your chances look better than I thought when I made my earlier post. You may also have an argument for overwhelming psychological distress which would get over the threshold for higher rate Daily Living (assuming nothing else changed).

poppy12345

She was receiving one 2 one support at college for the entire time she's there for her social anxiety disorder at the time. (and still is) I do know that they were contacted by the health assessment providers regarding this. I have no idea if that had anything to do with scoring those points. I also sent in relevant medical evidence to support her claim. She scored 4 points for activity 7 too.



OP the evidence you sent is 5 years old, that's a long time and things can change in that time. If you're going to take the MR route for this then i'd advise getting more up to date evidence to go with that. Good luck.

Alice_Holt

"I never go out socially on my own, to be honest I don't have a social life of my own because of this problem, as well as other anxiety and depression related problems." (post 12).

If you do appeal, then concentrate this activity on face to face social engagement with others.

The example about your GP is one a tribunal panel may well ask you about.
Other examples might include -
if you went to your local CAB for advice with this - would you need someone with you to help you explain fully;
can you go to the shops when needed, or do you time you trip when the supermarket is empty, or do you shop online;
do you have a conversion with people only for this interaction to cause you to worry, ruminate, and upset / distress yourself afterwards;
could you meet an acquaintance at a coffee shop (where you didn't know the staff) on your own?

What were the 7 DL points you scored?
Aid to cook, aid to read, prompting for social engagement, managing medication?

Do you manage the household finances, or does your partner?

Did you get any mobility points for the planning and following a journey activity?

justaquestion

Alice_Holt wrote: »

"I never go out socially on my own, to be honest I don't have a social life of my own because of this problem, as well as other anxiety and depression related problems." (post 12).

If you do appeal, then concentrate this activity on face to face social engagement with others.

The example about your GP is one a tribunal panel may well ask you about.
Other examples might include -
if you went to your local CAB for advice with this - would you need someone with you to help you explain fully;
can you go to the shops when needed, or do you time you trip when the supermarket is empty, or do you shop online;
do you have a conversion with people only for this interaction to cause you to worry, ruminate, and upset / distress yourself afterwards;
could you meet an acquaintance at a coffee shop (where you didn't know the staff) on your own?

What were the 7 DL points you scored?
Aid to cook, aid to read, prompting for social engagement, managing medication?

Do you manage the household finances, or does your partner?

Did you get any mobility points for the planning and following a journey activity?

Thank you for reply. I got 10 points for needing someone with me on an unfamiliar journey. So I am happy with that. Standard rate of mobility.

As regards going in to GP or cab my partner would take me there, but I could manage going in to see GP on my own, due to the fact that its simply interaction to do with my medical condition, and that I have so many times explained myself to psychiatrists and psychologists in the past. a Lot of the time I go over the conversation in m head several times afterwards , analysing it, wondering if I did or said something wrong.

I do realise maybe social contract means a different thing for PIP and not simply socialising

I try to have as little social contact with people as possible, though I find that no matter how hard I plan to avoid it, I do find myself pushed into it unexpectedly eg someone meets my partner and I, and invited us in, I don't want to go, but feel I have to, and my stress level goes right up.

Someone speaking to me if I am out, by name mostly makes me go into a state of shock, due to not recognising them, and not knowing what to say.Then later I feel so bad for not knowing them. and not engaging in a normal conversation

score in daily living was preparing food 2,

reading as I use a magnifier 2

Making budgeting decision 0, though I did say that my partner helps me a lot, as I can't see things like, accounts numbers clearly to set up direct debits etc. At the face to face the assessor said " you manage the budgeting, or something to that affect and skipped onwards. I actually thought that she was addressing my partner and that she accepted that she did a lot of that. But I was wrong.

preparing food 2 as I use aids, I did say that partner checks whether food was cooked properly etc .

managing treatment 1 point for using a dosete box though I did say that it happens I often forget to get tablets or that I take tablets out but that often I see them sitting around later.

Dressing and undressing 0 points though my partner often reminds me to change them due to me not realising that they need washing or in poor state of repair.

The assessor was very pleasant throughout the F2F and even remarked that when you have poor eyesight it tends to affect everything in your life.
Thanks again.

Alice_Holt

It would seem that 4 points for social engagement might be a possibility.

Does your anxiety affect your ability to deal with household finances?
Unfortunately the impact of reduced vision is not considered for this activity. So, you would be looking at the impact of your anxiety and poor mental health on "calculating household and personal budgets (e.g. knowing how much money is left to spend once bills and rent is paid), managing and paying bills (e.g. setting aside money from income for gas and electricity bills) and planning future purchases (e.g. knowing that saving is required when necessary)."


Does your poor eyesight affect Dressing in other ways?
https://www.rnib.org.uk/information-everyday-living-benefits-and-concessions/dressing-and-undressing
Do you need any aids - how do you cope with fasteners / zips / shoe laces, etc?
Does it take you twice as long as others to dress because of your disability?
From what you have said - "my partner often reminds me to change them due to me not realising that they need washing or in poor state of repair" - it seems that you might not be able to do this activity to an acceptable standard. And, thus, should have been awarded points for it.

If you do appeal then I would certainly cite the Dressing activity as well, since 2 points for this (needing prompting, or an aid) would get you to the standard DL award - even should the tribunal decide 2 points for needing prompting for social engagement was the appropriate award.

The 10 points awarded for needing someone with you on an unfamiliar journey, could have awarded for either anxiety or the sensory (eyesight) difficulties. If,when, you get the assessment report it refers to anxiety - then that could further support the needing social support for face to face engagement.

justaquestion

Thank you once again for taking time on to reply , you have been so helpful Alice, and everyone else as well.
Can I just ask if finding it very stressful and feelings of not being able to cope with it, if things go wrong or break in house as I couldn't see that coming under any descriptors?


Though I suppose most people would worry about that.

poppy12345

I think it may be a good idea to ring your local CAB or the likes and make an appointment for some further help with this, if you'r eplanning on asking for the MR. It seems like you're not understanding some of the descriptors. It helps to have some understanding as it's very difficult for anyone here to advise you any further because we don't know exactly how your conditions affect you daily.

Alice_Holt

justaquestion wrote: »

Can I just ask if finding it very stressful and feelings of not being able to cope with it, if things go wrong or break in house as I couldn't see that coming under any descriptors?
Though I suppose most people would worry about that.

Only generally, in that if it disrupts a PIP activity such as, say, preparing a meal (and happens as a regular occurrence) - then that would hinder being able to do that activity reliably.

(And I'm assuming the frustration / stress is linked to the anxiety / partial sight).

The reliably criteria is very important in PIP:
"Guidance issued by the DWP states that you need to be able to complete an activity reliably; in
order for it to apply. According to the guidance, reliably; means whether you can do so:
- Safely in a fashion that is unlikely to cause harm to themselves or to another person.
- To a necessary and acceptable standard given the nature of the activity.
- Repeatedly as often as is reasonably required.
- In a reasonable time period no more than twice as long as a person without a physical or mental health condition would take to carry out the activity."

If you do appeal then evidence about reliability (your own verbal evidence, written evidence from family / friends) could be very important at the tribunal hearing.