Any architects out there?

Beenie

The story so far: we have had simple plans drawn up by a friend (a technician) and have got our planning permssion for a single storey extension. He cannot do any further work for us due to personal and pressing reasons, so we agreed that we would engage an architect for the more detailed plans required by Build. Regs. inspector and, more importantly for us, something that builders can accurately give a quote for carrying out the work.

We found a local architect, got his scale of fees and agreed that he would draw up his own CAD plans and the info for the Building Inspector. My emails to him have always stressed that we are anxious to get the 'builders plans' asap so that various local companies can quote for the job.

The architect turned up with an enlarged version of our friend's basic plan (i.e. not his own original work) and some A4 sheets stating what the regs were for insulation, windows u values, etc ( i.e. generic info) but nothing relating to plans/elevations/ dimensions etc. for our extension. He said, when challenged, that roof design was the work of a structural engineer. What??? A single storey garden room extension, with simple roof, is the work of a structural engineer. He insisted that is what a Building Inspector would want. He later back-pedalled and said that if we stuck to normal building code, no calculations would be necessary. We cross checked this with a friend who works for a local authority Planning Dept in another part of the UK and he said that the structural engineer recommendation was nonsense - any architect should be capable of designing a simple roof for a single storey extension.

Our confidence is shaken.

He is coming back for a review later next week. What can we reasonably expect an architect to do for us? All my emails refer to a detailed plan for builders, and taking us through the Building Regs process. We have paid in advance for this work (at his request) a fee so far of £800 with another £400 when he takes it to Build. Inspection. All we have after several weeks is an enlargement of someone else's work and some generic advice re. building materials that frankly anyone could pull off the internet.

Finally, is there an arbitration/professional body that we can complain to? So far we feel cheated and underwhelmed by this architect.

Furts

I suggest you are being totally unreasonable. £800 for detailed drawings, would include a measured survey and probably a Specification. Services, drainage, build overs, covenants, soil conditions and much more will need consideration, Naturally only you know what brief you have issued but all this sounds like value.

Somebody has to design the structural element of the roof. You have not said what type of "simple" roof this design conforms to but involving a Structural Engineer is an everyday scenario. Clearly you feel you know better here than either the Architect or a Structural Engineer.

The Architect has not been given a chance and already you are suggesting complaining to a professional body. Poor old Architect!


No builder can quote for your work without the Architect's completed works plus Buildings Regulations. So your impatience is casting you in a poor light and making you look a fool.


You have to be happy working with the Architect because you are the Client in a business relationship. Clearly you are not happy. The Architect also needs to feel happy working for you. I cannot speak for the Architact but if it were me witnessing your attitude then I am unlikely to be wanting to work for you.

Beenie

I am not 'complaining to a professional body' but seeking options.

Soil conditions have already been determined by a structural engineer who had test holes bored into the garden. He has designed, with appropriate calculations, the ground works/piles, plus lintels for the windows.

The roof can either be 'zinc raised seam' or EPDM(?). I have already asked if we have to make a decision at this stage: everything depends on cost. He hasn't answered this question. I have also asked an architect friend about roof design and she tells me that architect design roofs all the rime without need for a structural engineer (this is a garden room extension, not a factory or a school remember).

My impatience as you term is based on this: we engaged a structural engineer who behaved professionally, delivered detailed plans, spoke to us on the phone, arranged a bore hole and did all this within a 2-3 week span.

The architect has been sitting on our brief for almost six weeks, despite us saying that we are anxious to get plans out to builders for them to give quotes. I don't think that is impatient, but if you say that is an industry wait-time, then I will reconsider.

Doozergirl

Beenie wrote: »

. Inspection. All we have after several weeks is an enlargement of someone else's work and some generic advice re. building materials that frankly anyone could pull off the internet.

Welcome to the world of Building Regulations drawings!

The pictures are virtually identical and yes, you get lists of generic u-values and specifications because it's the same as every job they've ever drawn, unless there's something particularly interesting that wants some additional cross sections drawings. On a bog standard single storey extension? Nothing interesting to see at all.

It helps you get quotes on a level playing field and resolve potential issues down the line, as the specification is clear, but builders do know how to build houses and the drawings and notes for a simple extension are like teaching granny to suck eggs. I'd personally not bother with BR plans on a job like yours and do it on Building Notice, but you already need a preferred builder and the trust already there. If you don't have that then you really do want the BR drawings.

I really wouldn't expect anything that looked like someone engaged their brain though.

Beenie

yes, it's a minefield for novices. We have never done an extension before, so need to be advised about ground levels between the existing lounge and the garden room and patio. Also there's the roof and how it links with the wall structure, plus the roof gradient and insulation, and the all-important guttering. We are also having a bi-fold door. How is this incorporated into the design?

The architect has a website talking about all the services he provides, and liaising with B.Regs. We thought - and made it clear in emails before we started on this - what we were expecting, and he didn't contradict us. So the least we expect is a detailed plan of the extension that a builder can quote from, and more importantly work from. A picture speaks a thousand words and all that.

Furts

You posted a couple of months ago. Just like now a misleading picture emerged. Advice was offered, but the rules kept changing.


Your "simple" roof turns out to be "zinc raised seam" or "EPDM". You do not know, so neither does the Architect. Yet you are impatient for builders to quote for an unknown.


You now toss in that it is likely to be piled foundations, yet you have no Buildings Regulations Approval here.



You now toss in a multitude of other items to confuse the overall picture. Yet are complaining about a £800 quote to sort out your minefield.


I said earlier that I would not be working for you. I pity your Architect.



Best of luck. Just like last time I am out.

Beenie

it is not 'likely' to have piled foundations - it MUST have piled foundations due to the clay ground conditions. The structural engineer has done the calcs. I so recall my earlier post where I made an enquiry and was assured that piles wouldn't be needed because it is 'very rare' but in my part of Essex it is very common. We have 15 metres of clay below us, which shrinks and expands due to rain water conditions - hence the need for piles. So I'm not 'tossing' things in, I'm trying to be as clear as I can.

We gave the architect a brief. He said he would do it at £60 an hour, and this would cover plans drawings, admin, dealing with Building inspectors. So far we have paid him £800 but have nothing of substance to show; there will be more to pay when the BR inspector gets involved. If he felt that our expectations were unrealistic, then surely he would have said something at the outset? And negotiated a different fee?

Beenie

just to add, when I say 'simple roof' I mean a slightly sloping roof as per the PP drawings.

It can be made of timber /tiles/slate/zinc/resin or EDPM.

The actual design will not change, only the materials.

Are you saying that an architect cannot draw this, or advise? And that the client has to worry about the details?If so, and structural engineers do the calculations, what does an architect actually do? Very puzzled about this.

EachPenny

Beenie wrote: »

Soil conditions have already been determined by a structural engineer who had test holes bored into the garden. He has designed, with appropriate calculations, the ground works/piles, plus lintels for the windows.

The roof can either be 'zinc raised seam' or EPDM(?). I have already asked if we have to make a decision at this stage: everything depends on cost. He hasn't answered this question. I have also asked an architect friend about roof design and she tells me that architect design roofs all the rime without need for a structural engineer (this is a garden room extension, not a factory or a school remember).

I'm a bit puzzled about how the Structural Engineer could have designed the ground works/pile and window lintels before the architect has designed the walls and roof.

The usual design process starts with the loads (that includes the roof and what may be on it (e.g. snow/wind)) and then work your way down to the ground to work out the most appropriate foundations for the calculated design load and the type of soil you have. Designing the foundations before you know what kind of roof you are having is strange, unless the engineer has made some very generous (and expensive) assumptions.

Beenie wrote: »

He said, when challenged, that roof design was the work of a structural engineer. What??? A single storey garden room extension, with simple roof, is the work of a structural engineer. He insisted that is what a Building Inspector would want. He later back-pedalled and said that if we stuck to normal building code, no calculations would be necessary. We cross checked this with a friend who works for a local authority Planning Dept in another part of the UK and he said that the structural engineer recommendation was nonsense - any architect should be capable of designing a simple roof for a single storey extension.

If you asked me, I'd say the same about the foundations and the window lintels. Unless you are planning a very complicated structure and/or are dealing with unusual ground conditions then these ought to be things a competent architect could design.

Are you acting as the client and coordinator for the project? Is this why you are appointing different professionals for different aspects of the project? If so, this approach can often lead to problems as different professionals have different opinions and methods of working. If you need to employ an architect to do the design then you need to accept their recommendations for the use of other professionals (e.g. a structural engineer). If you don't want to accept that then it would be better to find a different architect who is willing to do the whole job themselves.

EachPenny

Beenie wrote: »

just to add, when I say 'simple roof' I mean a slightly sloping roof as per the PP drawings.

You already have PP, but haven't decided what the roof is going to be? What did you say on the application where it asked about the materials being used?

It would be unusual for consent to be given without some detail on what kind of roof (and walls) you intended to build.

Beenie wrote: »

It can be made of timber /tiles/slate/zinc/resin or EDPM.

The actual design will not change, only the materials.

Each of those options impose different loadings and require different methods of support (as well as potentially different roof pitches).

The design will need to be adapted to suit the choice of material, which may necessitate agreeing changes to the design with the planning authority.

Beenie

The PP was given on the basis of a zinc roof BUT a couple of builders have suggested that as the roof won't be seen, we can save money by going for another material.

The structural engineer did his work based on the PP drawings, and is assuming that the roof joists will rest on the walls.

The builder that we like has said he needs more detailed plans to work from - and that's what we thought we were getting from the architect. Without labouring the point, we have told the architect that the initial outline design has been done and approved by the LA. All the archotect needs to do is make that plan workable for a builder -- if we have messed up, and that work could equally have been done by a technical plans drawer or similar, then it would have been nice if the architect had said something at the outset. As it is, we wrote down what we expected, he didn't contradict us, asked us to pay upfront, and has delivered a blown-up version of someone else's copyright work. No details, nothing for a builder to work to.....as I said, we are puzzled by the whole process.