Where does rent arrears sit in the order of paying creditors?

reg091

Thanks all for the solid advice, I really do appreciate it. One further thing that puzzles me: we will not know if the estate is insolvent until we have contacted banks etc and had house contents valued. But it seems that the very act of going in to the flat and arranging for valuation, contacting banks etc would already make us administrators.

In fact, what does constitute administrating the estate? Does the fact that I have notified the landlord of the death now mean that I am administrating the estate in the eyes of the law?

AnotherJoe

I'd be pragmatic, remove personal items (who's going to know they are gone or that they werent yours that you are taking back) and then leave it at that.

Shelldean

I dealt with my Nans low value estate.

She died on the Sat of a bank holiday, we reported the death to council on the first available opportunity. Tuesday. They expect the keys back there and then! We refused. They then expected them by the Friday. We hadn't even been able to register the death at this point. And knew it would take longer than four days to clear the house she'd lived in for over 70 even tho she didnt have a lot of stuff. We, my sis and i both had children and lived an hour away on the bus.

Finally negotiated three weeks with the council.
We managed this deadline. And handed the keys back. However while they never asked us for rent, they did ask for 1400. For clearing the really heavy sofa and few other bits, we hadn't been able to move due to neither of us driving.
The council tried to tell us that we was liable. Tried several times in fact.
We didn't realise then that we wasn't liable. But we was skint and unable to pay it anyway!
So when they sent the bill. We told them no funds, they sent a reminder. We replied again saying no funds. Then they called. Told them again no funds left.

And thankfully we never heard from them again.

Not saying yours will be as easy, but we.couldn't leave Nan house w/o taking her 'bits'

reg091

So I think from everything I have learned here I am looking at these options:

1) Go ahead and "administer" the estate by closing bank accounts, valuing and selling property to add to the pot and then paying creditors (attempting to stick to the legal order of paying) until the pot is empty. Then telling the other creditors they are not going to get paid. Upside of that is that we are not out of pocket and we get the family heirlooms of no value etc. Downside is if we do it wrong and someone challenges it we have to personally pay them.
2) We do all of the above except we just pay all of the creditors in full from the estate and our pockets. Clean and simple.
3) We walk away and do nothing.

I will probably go with option 2.

I should have pointed out that I don't think the liabilities on the estate are likely to be more than £2k maximum so there is even the possibility that it is not insolvent. If I discover the liabilities are significant then that might change things.

Everything I have read elsewhere says that we do have the right to enter the premises, remove stuff (as long as we ensure creditors are paid), close bank accounts etc. This is not intermeddling in this scenario.

Yorkshireman99

Doing what you suggest in your last paragraph certainly IS intermeddling. Sadly doing what is instinctive and applying common sense gets people into an arkward spot. Just bad luck really. You just have to decide what risk you are prepared to take.

getmore4less

humanitarian acts and safe keeping of assets is not intermeddling.

Assets in a property, that will be unattended and potentially cleared by a landlord wanting the property back, including essential paperwork, anything of value or stuff you just want to keep safe can be removed for safe keeping.

With an insolvent estate you consider doing this ASAP.


To answer to the title of the thread.

rent arrears are unsecured debts.

post death is a bit more complicated as a tenancy does not cease on death

reg091

Thanks getmore4less. The info in rent is useful, although it is rent owed now post death and before the flat is handed back to the HA.

On intermeddling etc: One solicitor said "you can do whatever you want". I asked "surely I have to prove to someone who I am and that I have a legal right to take stuff" and the answer was "no".

reg091

Re: intermeddling. Yes, I now see that the law says that what we are proposing to do IS intermeddling. See here for a useful description: http://www.mondaq.com/x/209888/wills+intestacy+estate+planning/What+Not+To+Do+When+Someone+Dies
However, I cannot see that it matters one bit. We are not disrupting the process of someone else (an executor for instance) administering the estate as there is no one else, we ARE making ourselves personally liable - but there is very little debt so we are prepared for that as the price to pay for getting heirlooms. (As it seems that is the only way we can get those legally - as long as we have paid all the creditors).

silvercar

Worst case is that some unforeseen debts pop up, rent arrears, cost of returning rental property to original condition, rent due until property is returned, funeral costs.....

Yorkshireman99

You are correct and since youare prepared to take the risk then there is no problem. As you have seen the solicitor was wrong and GM4LEss advice is at least questionable. Personablly I would do the same in your situation. Nevertheless it is important that peoplein you situation realise that there IS a risk. Good luck.