Tooth Nerve - Root Canal Question, £700 cost? Help Please?

System

brook2jack wrote: »

This is an article from 18 years ago!!!!!! There has been a major change in NHS contracts which mean a dentist will lose money by "overtreating", there have been major changes in technology with rotary instruments and operating microscopes etc for endodontics . You are talking about an article from a generation ago! .

The discussion had got on to dentists doing too many fillings in the 1970s. The article is indeed relevant to that discussion and I did say clearly in my post that the linked story was from the year 2000..

Toothsmith

avogadro wrote: »

This article from 2000 paints a rather different picture to the one presented by dentists on this site

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/apr/23/anthonybrowne.theobserver

What ???

How is an article from nearly 20 years ago at all relevant to what we're saying today???

20 years ago was the time I was getting myself out of the NHS for exactly the reasons described in that article. It was just becoming impossible to do a decent job for the funding available.

Since then though, we've had the new NHS contract of 2006 (The thing that made me stop seeing even kids on the NHS) That cured all the problems listed in that article at a stroke!!

It made it completely uneconomic for dentists to root fill & crown teeth - so now there are many less substandard root fillings and crowns around, as the teeth are taken out instead!!

Which is why, coming back to the OP's first post, I said that the dentist was obviously a good one as she had actually had a go at root filling his tooth before deciding it was too difficult and recommending a specialist. At the time, I was thinking that dentist might have been an NHS one, but I'm suspecting now that she was probably private too.

Toothsmith

avogadro wrote: »

The discussion had got on to dentists doing too many fillings in the 1970s. The article is indeed relevant to that discussion and I did say clearly in my post that the linked story was from the year 2000..

Crossed post with Brook!

You did also say 'it paints a rather different picture to the one presented by the dentists on this site'

I'm pretty sure I've never said very much positive about the NHS dental service at any era since the first couple of years in the late 40s!

System

Toothsmith wrote: »

What ???

How is an article from nearly 20 years ago at all relevant to what we're saying today???

20 years ago was the time I was getting myself out of the NHS for exactly the reasons described in that article. It was just becoming impossible to do a decent job for the funding available.

Since then though, we've had the new NHS contract of 2006 (The thing that made me stop seeing even kids on the NHS) That cured all the problems listed in that article at a stroke!!

You might want to tell that to brook2jack, who doesn't seem to accept that free/affordable dentistry, even for children, is often very hard to come by.

Toothsmith wrote: »

Crossed post with Brook!

You did also say 'it paints a rather different picture to the one presented by the dentists on this site'

I'm pretty sure I've never said very much positive about the NHS dental service at any era since the first couple of years in the late 40s!

The difference being, the dentists on this site blame the patients for the state of their teeth, while the journalistic evidence in the article points to the fault often lying with unscrupulous dentists.

Yes, we do know you have no time for NHS patients, and as a private practitioner you have every right to take that stance

It's not particularly helpful for those who are struggling financially, though, and given that this site is about money saving, it often amazes me that this board is so pro-private dentistry, given the costs involved.

Saffythecat

Just to give a patient's perspective, I am the same age as you, OP, and this year have paid almost £2,000 for root canal treatments on two upper back teeth.

I was in a similar position, as I'd had deep fillings done when I was young, but have always taken excellent care of my teeth in terms of brushing, flossing etc, never missed a checkup. I hastened the fillings' demise by clenching and grinding my teeth. My own (lovely, NHS) dentist said she would attempt the work, but I may need specialist referral - I opted to go straight to the specialist. I paid £50 for a consultation, and that was when he spotted that the next door tooth to the one which needed root canal had a dodgy root canal from about 20 years previously, and needed a re-treatment. The two teeth took about four hours in the chair in total, and I'm now getting crowns on them which is an extra cost.

I would always try and save the teeth if possible. I lost a rear molar last year under similar circumstances to what you describe (my dentist couldn't find all the canals, I had been in so much pain I decided just to have it extracted) and really wish I'd gone to the root canal specialist and still had it now.

Saffythecat

Oh, and just to add, I had heard the 70% success rate figure too, and I queried it with the endodontist. I asked him what my options were if the treatment failed, and he seemed surprised - then both perplexed and offended when I said to him the stats indicated that of ten root treatments, three people would actually lose the tooth. He told me that if his personal success rate was 70%, he would not be employed within the (highly respected and very expensive) surgery, or working at the dental school, and that he would not trust him to do the treatment either.

Toothsmith

avogadro wrote: »

Yes, we do know you have no time for NHS patients, and as a private practitioner you have every right to take that stance

I have plenty of time for NHS patients. As those around my practice find when they come to see the error of their ways! :D It's the NHS system that I am against, and the lies that are perpetuated about it by those that should be doing something about it.

Money saving doesn't always mean going for the cheapest you can get. And 'cost' is not always a financial thing.

By educating patients that what they do has a more of an effect on their dental health (and therefore ongoing costs) than anything I do, I like to think that those who listen are saving money. By doing things as well as I can, or sending patients to someone who can do it better if I can't, I like to think that treatments are not costing them unnecessary tooth loss.

steve007

Toothsmith wrote: »

At the time, I was thinking that dentist might have been an NHS one, but I'm suspecting now that she was probably private too.

Yes, they are a private practice, but accept NHS patients too, so as you will know you pay NHS prices but they can offer additionals as well.

I have pretty much decided to go for a consultation with the specialist/endodontist, as I suspect this is the start of things to come on the teeth I have with fillings, and I simply don't want to have no teeth as I get older, so as I can luckily afford it, I will try and save them.

I think I might regret it otherwise.

Strangely enough, when I mentioned yesterday that out of 80 replies, all but 1 said they would have it pulled, a few others have come forward now and suggested saving it, as well as two dentist nurses who said the same, and gave a little advice.

I think it's all well and good taking advice overall from those who may have been in a smiliar position, but they are my teeth (albeit filled to high heaven with black fillings) so I have to think ahead, and see what can be salvaged for as long as possible I think.

Who do I blame for the state of my teeth? The dentists on the 70's, who were definitely profiting without due validity. I am actually surprised there has not been some mass action taken against the relevant bodies, but of course it would be nigh on impossible to prove, plus the embarrassment factor of those with bad teeth being accused on the exact opposite.

So we, the affected, deal with it the best we can - if you have the money of course.

steve007

Saffythecat wrote: »

Just to give a patient's perspective, I am the same age as you, OP, and this year have paid almost £2,000 for root canal treatments on two upper back teeth.

I was in a similar position, as I'd had deep fillings done when I was young, but have always taken excellent care of my teeth in terms of brushing, flossing etc, never missed a checkup. I hastened the fillings' demise by clenching and grinding my teeth. My own (lovely, NHS) dentist said she would attempt the work, but I may need specialist referral - I opted to go straight to the specialist. I paid £50 for a consultation, and that was when he spotted that the next door tooth to the one which needed root canal had a dodgy root canal from about 20 years previously, and needed a re-treatment. The two teeth took about four hours in the chair in total, and I'm now getting crowns on them which is an extra cost.

I would always try and save the teeth if possible. I lost a rear molar last year under similar circumstances to what you describe (my dentist couldn't find all the canals, I had been in so much pain I decided just to have it extracted) and really wish I'd gone to the root canal specialist and still had it now.

Saffy, thank you for those posts, they help a lot!

Toothsmith

steve007 wrote: »

Who do I blame for the state of my teeth? The dentists on the 70's, who were definitely profiting without due validity. I am actually surprised there has not been some mass action taken against the relevant bodies, but of course it would be nigh on impossible to prove, plus the embarrassment factor of those with bad teeth being accused on the exact opposite.

That is the problem - no-one will be able to tell whether the fillings were needed or not - as once the filling is in, then there will be no sign of the decay! Or lack of it!!

I would say that fillings probably were necessary - as decay was pretty rife at that time too. The other thing is that the whole approach to filling teeth was different back then too. Amalgam was practically the only material to use, and the way that cavities were cut then was still based on principles developed by a dentist called G.V. Black at the end of the 1800s! (Which, incidentally was still the way I was taught in the 1980s!)

It was only really at the end of the 80s when the gross decay of previous decades was beginning to come under control due to widespread fluoride toothpaste, that a more conservative approach to filling and fixing teeth began to be developed. One of the leading lights of this was a dentist called Elderton, who was responsible for the report that Avagadro's Observer article of 2000 was based on. That, and the growing used of white composite fillings meant that fillings were done much smaller than they were before - and often, decay was not treated at such an early stage as it used to be. With good education, and patients understanding that what they were doing, eating and drinking had a direct effect on whether a tiny cavity got bigger or not, you could leave a small cavity and reassess it a few months later.

Of course, to do all that properly, you need time to talk to the patients, and the patients have to value that advice, and pay for that time. Not always want to have a 'filling' or a 'crown' or a 'denture' for the money they've paid, but recognise that actually learning something is worth money too - and that having a tooth left alone and closely monitored is also valuable.

So - to come back to the start, and your question. Yes - there was a bit of 'drilling for gold' going on in dentistry in the 70s. There can be if you find the wrong place these days too! But There are lots of factors that have given 'Boomers' heavily filled teeth that now need a lot of attention. Not all of it was badly motivated.